Top 32 tournament C Lombardi vs Freehan

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Catcher Bracket is:

1 J Bench 13
32 R Ferrell 1

16 T Munson 6
17 W Schang 0

8 B Dickey 3 Dickey will advance on higher seed
25 R Campanella 3

9 G Harnett 6
24 L Parrish 0

4 C Fisk 10
29 J Clements 0

13 G Tenace 1
20 J Kendall 7

5 Y Berra 7
28 R Martin 0

12 B Ewing 2 advances on seed
21 R Bresnahan 2

3 I Rodriguez 8
30 D McGuire 0

14 J Mauer 8
19 J Posada 9

6 M Piazza 11
27 V Martinez 0

11 T Simmons 11
22 D Porter 0

2 G Carter 11
31 S Lollar 0

15 E Lombardi
18 B Freehan

7 J Torre
26 S Burgess

10 M Cochrane
23 J Sundberg

1 J Bench
16 T Munson

8 B Dickey
9 G Harnett

4 C Fisk
20 J Kendall

5 Y Berra
12 B Ewing

3 I Rodriguez
19 J Posada

6 M Piazza
11 T Simmons

2 G Carter

 

[obxyankeefan]

Ernie Lombardi Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Bill Freehan Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

No Tigers fans love for Freehan

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Freehan was the better defender... I go defense for catchers unless the offense is overwhelmingly different...

dWAR 11.8 to 2.9

Freehan had a .993 fielding% compared to Lombardi's .974

 

[calsnowskier]

Freehan was the better defender... I go defense for catchers unless the offense is overwhelmingly different...

dWAR 11.8 to 2.9

Freehan had a .993 fielding% compared to Lombardi's .974

If the D was THAT different, I am willing to change my vote. Prob is, I simply dont trust defensive stats.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If the D was THAT different, I am willing to change my vote. Prob is, I simply dont trust defensive stats.

I did leave out that Lombardi had a 48% caught stealing rate compared to freehan's 37%... But like you I don't know or trust defensive stats, so I take what is given... Still think dWAR is the best defensive metric I have found...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If the D was THAT different, I am willing to change my vote. Prob is, I simply dont trust defensive stats.

The problem is though, that catcher is the positon where defense is probably most important... good defensive catchers probably help out their pitchers more than good defense at any other position... So, I can not ignore defense for catchers, even if I don't trust the defensive metrics...

 

[calsnowskier]

I am 100% with you in evaluating catchers defense vs their offense. But without first hand reports, I simply cannot take numbers into account.

As you said, I can only use what is available to me. IMHO, defensive stats I see on my computer monitor are not worth the paper they are printed on.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am 100% with you in evaluating catchers defense vs their offense. But without first hand reports, I simply cannot take numbers into account.

As you said, I can only use what is available to me. IMHO, defensive stats I see on my computer monitor are not worth the paper they are printed on.

But that's not fair to call yadier Molina the best defensive catcher(not saying you are)... but just because you don't trust a stat doesn't mean you cant look at it and see the differential... To judge only on offense at a position that is mostly defensive, is just not fair IMO...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am 100% with you in evaluating catchers defense vs their offense. But without first hand reports, I simply cannot take numbers into account.

As you said, I can only use what is available to me. IMHO, defensive stats I see on my computer monitor are not worth the paper they are printed on.

Freehan also had 11 seasons with a better dWAR than Lombardi's best season...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Also, since we are basing the rankings on WAR,

Freehan has a 33.7 WAR7 and 36.8 JAWS compared to Lombardi' 27.8 WAR7 and 36.8 JAWS

what that tells me is that Freehan had better best seasons...


Only problem with these votes, is that I feel like when we vote between 2 players that nobody cares about we will generally base it on original ranking... This is ONE that I think we are getting wrong, just because we don't care and the player will lose in the second round anyway!!!

 

[Villain]

Major League Leaderboards » 2015 » Batters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[calsnowskier]

But that's not fair to call yadier Molina the best defensive catcher(not saying you are)... but just because you don't trust a stat doesn't mean you cant look at it and see the differential... To judge only on offense at a position that is mostly defensive, is just not fair IMO...

I take defense into account for players from the last 30 years because I have first-hand knowledge of them. I know IRod and Molina were absolute beasts behind the dish. I also know Piazza was a statue. From reputation, I know Bench and Berra were great, all-around players. I use all of that in my voting. Is it perfect? Far from it. But I have made the decision (right or wrong) that I dont trust defensive stats. Therefore, I ignore them.

 

[calsnowskier]

If you were to provide some articles about his defense, or how he was one of the best game callers of his era, or something like that (and I am not asking you to do this research, I am just saying that if these articles existed), than I would seriously reconsider my vote. You are making good arguments. Unfortunately, I just dont acknowledge the validity of your apparent source material. Thats on me, not on you.

 

[Villain]

I can't decide the winner without TRR%

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If you were to provide some articles about his defense, or how he was one of the best game callers of his era, or something like that (and I am not asking you to do this research, I am just saying that if these articles existed), than I would seriously reconsider my vote. You are making good arguments. Unfortunately, I just dont acknowledge the validity of your apparent source material. Thats on me, not on you.

Well, Freehan has 5 GG compared to lombard's zero... Now we know GG is not a great defensive metric, but it does at least show how the people perceived the player... And when the advanced stats support this logic, that should be enough to say that Freehan was the better defender... The question of how much better, i agree is too hard to answer... But it is not like Lombardi is significantly better offensively...

 

[Villain]

Remember when Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier both won gold gloves?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Remember when Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier both won gold gloves?

Yes, but when the advanced stats support the popular perception then that just strenghtens the argument...\

and there is a huge difference between getting the award once and getting it multiple times...

Freehan has won the 6th most GG for any catcher...

 

[Villain]

Yes, but when the advanced stats support the popular perception then that just strenghtens the argument...

I get what you're saying. I get why you're saying it. I think you're coming from a place of sound logic.

The thing is that it still isn't going to get you far with the likes of calsnowskier. I'm actually a calsnowboarder, so while I'm much cooler, have way better style, and I'm infinitely less snoody and disagreeable, I still share a lot of the mindset of my rival. In a mindset like ours, combining Gold Gloves to defensive metrics is basically adding one iffy measuring stick to another iffy measuring stick. It's not convincing.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I get what you're saying. I get why you're saying it. I think you're coming from a place of sound logic.

The thing is that it still isn't going to get you far with the likes of calsnowskier. I'm actually a calsnowboarder, so while I'm much cooler, have way better style, and I'm infinitely less snoody and disagreeable, I still share a lot of the mindset of my rival. In a mindset like ours, combining Gold Gloves to defensive metrics is basically adding one iffy measuring stick to another iffy measuring stick. It's not convincing.

I am not saying it is convincing, i just don't think it is good to ignore defense all together, especially at a position that defense is more important or JUST as important as offense... I mean, if a first baseman is not great defensively you are more lenient towards it...

there is a point where you just have to trust all the iffy information and assume it is not as iffy as it seems... We haven't seen every player play, why penalize them for it...