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Top 32 tournament C Fisk vs Berra

Catcher


  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

obxyankeefan

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Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Catcher Bracket is:

1 J Bench 13
32 R Ferrell 1

16 T Munson 6
17 W Schang 0

8 B Dickey 3 Dickey will advance on higher seed
25 R Campanella 3

9 G Harnett 6
24 L Parrish 0

4 C Fisk 10
29 J Clements 0

13 G Tenace 1
20 J Kendall 7

5 Y Berra 7
28 R Martin 0

12 B Ewing 2 advances on seed
21 R Bresnahan 2

3 I Rodriguez 8
30 D McGuire 0

14 J Mauer 8
19 J Posada 9

6 M Piazza 11
27 V Martinez 0

11 T Simmons 11
22 D Porter 0

2 G Carter 11
31 S Lollar 0

15 E Lombardi 7
18 B Freehan 4

7 J Torre 6
26 S Burgess 2

10 M Cochrane 4
23 J Sundberg 1

1 J Bench 11
16 T Munson 0

8 B Dickey 5
9 G Harnett 2

4 C Fisk 12
20 J Kendall 0

5 Y Berra 7
12 B Ewing 0

3 I Rodriguez 8
19 J Posada 1

6 M Piazza 10
11 T Simmons 2

2 G Carter 10
15 E Lombardi 1

7 J Torre 0
10 M Cochrane 10

1 J Bench 9
8 B Dickey 0

4 C Fisk
5 Y Berra

3 I Rodriguez
6 M Piazza

2 G Carter
10 M Cochrane

1 J Bench
 

obxyankeefan

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I have to drive cross country and back again tomorrow so I am putting tomorrow thread up early today.

I went with Fisk because I am just old enough to have seen Bench at the end of his career and IMO Fisk was the best Defensive catcher I ever saw. The way he worked those White Sox staffs was IMO still unseen today.
 

navamind

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MilkSpiller22

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3X MVP, Yogi all day.

There was only 16 teams until the 1960s... Being MVP out of 8 teams where the MVP was always from the best teams, doesn't really have a strong meaning back then IMO... And should not be the reason for any decision...

Not saying it is your only reason... But IMO it is not a valid one...
 

UK Cowboy

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There was only 16 teams until the 1960s... Being MVP out of 8 teams where the MVP was always from the best teams, doesn't really have a strong meaning back then IMO... And should not be the reason for any decision...

Not saying it is your only reason... But IMO it is not a valid one...
I would make the exact opposite argument, that being MVP 3 times back then would be like being a 6X MVP now. Imagine if MLB eliminated all but 16 teams next season.... every team would be far better than any of the teams from this year
 

MilkSpiller22

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Power-Fisk wins(VERY CLOSE)
XBH%
Yogi-Career=8.7, Best=10.2, seasons better than average=7, MLB average=6.5
Fisk- career=8.6, best=11.5, seasons better than average=14, MLB average=6.5

SO- Yogi wins(not close)
SO%
Yogi- Career- 5.0, best= 1.8,seasons better than average=9, MLB average= 12.2
Fisk- Career=14.1, Best=9.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average=14.0

BB- Fisk wins( close)
BB%
Yogi- Career=8.4, Best=11, seasons better than average=10, MLB average=9.1
Fisk- Career=8.6, Best=12.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average= 8.6

BA- Yogi wins(close)
Yogi- Career=.285, Best=.322, seasons better than average=7, seasons over 300=3
Fisk= Career=.265, Best=331, Seasons better than average=12, seasons over .300=3

Defense-Fisk Wins(close)
dWAR
Yogi- Career=8.7, Best=1.1, 14 seasons above average, 2 seasons 1 or higher
Fisk- Career=16.3, Best=2.3, 20 seasons above average, 9 seasons 1 or above

playoffs- Yogi wins(NOT CLOSE) BUT Yogi played 60 more playoff games

career longevity- Fisk wins(over a thousand more PA)

Defensive longevity-Fisk wins(nearly 600 more games)


Unfortunately the analysis says Fisk wins... I walked into this one thinking that Yogi was going to win easily... But i have to respect the analysis and go with Fisk... He was just better....
 

MilkSpiller22

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I would make the exact opposite argument, that being MVP 3 times back then would be like being a 6X MVP now. Imagine if MLB eliminated all but 16 teams next season.... every team would be far better than any of the teams from this year


Look at the 16 teams that were there not all were competitive...
 

UK Cowboy

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Look at the 16 teams that were there not all were competitive...
Look at how many of the 32 teams now are non competitive lol. You can't argue that the quality of teams wouldnt be better today with less teams
 

UK Cowboy

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Power-Fisk wins(VERY CLOSE)
XBH%
Yogi-Career=8.7, Best=10.2, seasons better than average=7, MLB average=6.5
Fisk- career=8.6, best=11.5, seasons better than average=14, MLB average=6.5

SO- Yogi wins(not close)
SO%
Yogi- Career- 5.0, best= 1.8,seasons better than average=9, MLB average= 12.2
Fisk- Career=14.1, Best=9.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average=14.0

BB- Fisk wins( close)
BB%
Yogi- Career=8.4, Best=11, seasons better than average=10, MLB average=9.1
Fisk- Career=8.6, Best=12.4, seasons better than average=12, MLB average= 8.6

BA- Yogi wins(close)
Yogi- Career=.285, Best=.322, seasons better than average=7, seasons over 300=3
Fisk= Career=.265, Best=331, Seasons better than average=12, seasons over .300=3

Defense-Fisk Wins(close)
dWAR
Yogi- Career=8.7, Best=1.1, 14 seasons above average, 2 seasons 1 or higher
Fisk- Career=16.3, Best=2.3, 20 seasons above average, 9 seasons 1 or above

playoffs- Yogi wins(NOT CLOSE) BUT Yogi played 60 more playoff games

career longevity- Fisk wins(over a thousand more PA)

Defensive longevity-Fisk wins(nearly 600 more games)


Unfortunately the analysis says Fisk wins... I walked into this one thinking that Yogi was going to win easily... But i have to respect the analysis and go with Fisk... He was just better....
I have no idea how you can give Fisk the edge in power. Virtually the same amount of homers in 1000 less plate appearances for Yogi
 

MilkSpiller22

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Look at how many of the 32 teams now are non competitive lol. You can't argue that the quality of teams wouldnt be better today with less teams


Of course you can... But at the same time with less teams the awards will mean less because there would be so much less competition...

Look at it this way, Yogi Berra made the all star game 18 times, but there were 3 catchers to make the game and only 8 catchers eligible to make it... is making the all star game that impressive??
 

MilkSpiller22

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I have no idea how you can give Fisk the edge in power. Virtually the same amount of homers in 1000 less plate appearances for Yogi


Power is not just HRs... and i said it was VERY CLOSE... when i capitalize it i mean it is nearly a tie...
 

UK Cowboy

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Of course you can... But at the same time with less teams the awards will mean less because there would be so much less competition...

Look at it this way, Yogi Berra made the all star game 18 times, but there were 3 catchers to make the game and only 8 catchers eligible to make it... is making the all star game that impressive??
Come on now....if there were 8 teams in the AL, the current 8 best would start and the other 8 starters would be backups. Not to mention the pitching they'd have to face. Say they cut the Angels, Astros, Rangers, Mariners, A's, Twins, White Sox and Indians.....Yu Darvish and Cole Hamels might be the #3 and #4 pitchers for the Tigers
 

MilkSpiller22

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Come on now....if there were 8 teams in the AL, the current 8 best would start and the other 8 starters would be backups. Not to mention the pitching they'd have to face. Say they cut the Angels, Astros, Rangers, Mariners, A's, Twins, White Sox and Indians.....Yu Darvish and Cole Hamels might be the #3 and #4 pitchers for the Tigers

yes, but who said that the players would be evenly distributed?? and if the MVP almost ALWAYS goes to at least one of the better teams.. then doesn't that shrink the pool even more???


I would actually love to see a study to see how many MVP awards were given to the BEST player...
 

calsnowskier

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OPS+ (Berra/Fisk)

120 - 10/9
130 - 7/7
140 - 2/4
150 - 0/4
160 - 0/1

Fisk wins.

oWAR7

Berra - 35.0
Fisk - 35.3

Fisk is considered one of better defensive catchers of all time.

Wow. Fisk was a lot better than I thought. I went into this with the expectation that it would be a walk. I was right. But I was wrong about WHICHEVER player would take the walk.

Fisk wins.
 

obxyankeefan

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OPS+ (Berra/Fisk)

120 - 10/9
130 - 7/7
140 - 2/4
150 - 0/4
160 - 0/1

Fisk wins.

oWAR7

Berra - 35.0
Fisk - 35.3

Fisk is considered one of better defensive catchers of all time.

Wow. Fisk was a lot better than I thought. I went into this with the expectation that it would be a walk. I was right. But I was wrong about WHICHEVER player would take the walk.

Fisk wins.

I hate giving credit to a Red Sox, but Fisk is one of the more undervalued catchers in baseball history.
 

calsnowskier

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Did the people who voted Berra even look at the numbers?

I get it. This FEELS like an obvious vote. I came into this one tempted to not even look it up. But I DID look it up. And I learned something.

DONT RELY ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS, PEOPLE!! Look this up. It isn't really all that close!
 

DragonfromTO

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Of course you can... But at the same time with less teams the awards will mean less because there would be so much less competition...

Look at it this way, Yogi Berra made the all star game 18 times, but there were 3 catchers to make the game and only 8 catchers eligible to make it... is making the all star game that impressive??

It's not like it's a lottery where everyone has a ticket though. None of the guys getting dropped from the pool by going from 30 teams to 16 teams are actual MVP candidates.
 
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