top 32 tournament 1b Thome vs Sisler

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

1basemen Bracket is:

1 L Gehrig 6
32 J Giambi 0

16 J Beckley 0
17 T Helton 7

8 F Thomas 8
25 B Terry 0

9 J Thome
24 G Sisler

4 C Anson
29 N Cash

13 W McCovey
20 D Allen

5 R Connor
28 F McGriff

12 E Murray
21 J Olerud

3 J Foxx
30 L Berkman

14 M Cabrera
19 K Hernandez

6 J Bagwell
27 J Clark

11 J Mize
22 H Greenberg

2 A Pujols
31 M Teixeira

15 M McGwire
18 H Killebrew

7 D Brouthers
26 T Perez

10 R Palmeiro
23 W Clark

1 L Gehrig
17 T Helton

8 F Thomas

 

[obxyankeefan]

Jim Thome Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

George Sisler Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[navamind]

Sisler was a great player prior to 1923. And then he fell off a cliff. A significant chunk of his career value came from his pre-1923 seasons, kinda like how Nomar Garciaparra's value came from his 97-03 seasons. Whereas Thome was a productive major leaguer for nearly two decades.

 

[calsnowskier]

A 1B vs. a DH.

No-brainier.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Thome is one of the best power hitters of all time, and had a significantly better OBP than Sisler... All sisler was better at was defense and BA... and we are talking about first base here, where defense is kind of just a bonus...

Thome at 9 I kind of a joke, thought he would be higher ranked...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

A 1B vs. a DH.

No-brainier.

its not like sisler was that good defensively either, and Thome played over a thousand games at 1B...

 

[calsnowskier]

its not like sisler was that good defensively either, and Thome played over a thousand games at 1B...

That's my bad...

I was looking at his 3B numbers.

I thought it was odd that he only played 500 games at first.

Changing my vote...

 

[StanMarsh51]

its not like sisler was that good defensively either, and Thome played over a thousand games at 1B...

Not to mention started nearly 500 games at 3B.

 

[navamind]

its not like sisler was that good defensively either, and Thome played over a thousand games at 1B...

Thome played 2/3 of his games at 1B/3B. He moved to DH because of his injuries in 2005, when he was 34.

 

[obxyankeefan]

A 1B vs. a DH.

No-brainier.

You really hate the DH don't you? Of course I was figuring it would be an issue on guys like Edgar Martinez, and IMO they were always the position they played the most in the field. Even if they were seldom in the field.

 

[calsnowskier]

You really hate the DH don't you? Of course I was figuring it would be an issue on guys like Edgar Martinez, and IMO they were always the position they played the most in the field. Even if they were seldom in the field.

I do hate the DH, but it doesn't really apply here. I was basing this comment on 500 games at 1B (a mistake).

I just find it laughable that durability is a detractor for players pre-DH, but ignored for players who got a good number of games in their career at DH. The DH bastardizes numbers. These guys are only playing 1/2 the game. Not only are they less injury prone, they can dedicate 100% of their training to hitting and never have to practice fielding.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I do hate the DH, but it doesn't really apply here. I was basing this comment on 500 games at 1B (a mistake).

I just find it laughable that durability is a detractor for players pre-DH, but ignored for players who got a good number of games in their career at DH. The DH bastardizes numbers. These guys are only playing 1/2 the game. Not only are they less injury prone, they can dedicate 100% of their training to hitting and never have to practice fielding.

I don't mind punishing players for DHing, but when the numbers aren't even close it should not be a factor...

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't mind punishing players for DHing, but when the numbers aren't even close it should not be a factor...

Again, doesn't apply here, but where is the break off?

If a player played only 33% of his games at said position, does that count? 50%? 66%?

Why not list Matt Williams or Garry Sheffield at SS or Ron Gant at 2B?

Heck, who was the best hitting pitcher in the history of the game? Mike Hampton? Dave Robinson? Babe Ruth? Jose Canseco?

 

[obxyankeefan]

I don't mind punishing players for DHing, but when the numbers aren't even close it should not be a factor...

I agree with you Milk, and yes Cal I saw your second post about mis reading Thome's stats. IMO it is how many games did you play at DH. If you are a DH like Edgar was where you didn't even play in the field the last 2/3 of your career, then yes being a DH makes a big difference. But a player like Gorman Thomas who had ~=1500 Games played and ~=300 of them at DH I don't think it should be in the discussion.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Again, doesn't apply here, but where is the break off?

If a player played only 33% of his games at said position, does that count? 50%? 66%?

Why not list Matt Williams or Garry Sheffield at SS or Ron Gant at 2B?

Heck, who was the best hitting pitcher in the history of the game? Mike Hampton? Dave Robinson? Babe Ruth? Jose Canseco?

The break off to me is what position in the field did they play the most of, and I agree that the DH has bastardized that. But once you have started something like this what do you do with players whose most games played is DH? You can't ignore them.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with you Milk, and yes Cal I saw your second post about mis reading Thome's stats. IMO it is how many games did you play at DH. If you are a DH like Edgar was where you didn't even play in the field the last 2/3 of your career, then yes being a DH makes a big difference. But a player like Gorman Thomas who had ~=1500 Games played and ~=300 of them at DH I don't think it should be in the discussion.

but if we are comparing edgar Martinez with Hienie Groh... Edgar Martinez is still the better 3B because the offensive numbers don't equate to the defensive difference...

 

[calsnowskier]

The break off to me is what position in the field did they play the most of, and I agree that the DH has bastardized that. But once you have started something like this what do you do with players whose most games played is DH? You can't ignore them.

If you are a doing a "best player at this position" discussion, you absolutely CAN ignore them. They didn't play the position.

 

[navamind]

Some of Edgar's best years came at 3B. He was not a bad defensive 3B by any means.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I use Edgar all the time because he was the worst about playing the field.

 

[navamind]

I use Edgar all the time because he was the worst about playing the field.

I can agree on holding it against him to an extent.

But hitting is far more important than fielding, and Edgar was unquestionably one of best hitters to ever play the game.