Top 32 tournament 1B Miggy vs Hernandez

[obxyankeefan]

I did not intend my response to be defensive or argumentative (in a fighting kind of way - we ARE having an argument, after all ). I was just answering...

Nothing argumentive about it. This is what makes these discussions great, different opinions.

 

[Howie115]

I already stated that Miggy is CLEARLY the better player.

But this is a FIRST BASE discussion. Therefore, including Miggy does not make sense.

Depends what you are weighing, I guess. If their hitting was even close, I'd say the fact that Hernandez is definitely more of a TRUE first baseman becomes the tie-breaker. But the hitting ISN'T close. Hernandez was a very good hitter. Cabrera is one of the best right-handed hitters of all time. Hernandez had exactly one season where he hit for a higher average than Miggy's career BA of .322. And the power numbers are a joke to compare.

 

[calsnowskier]

Depends what you are weighing, I guess. If their hitting was even close, I'd say the fact that Hernandez is definitely more of a TRUE first baseman becomes the tie-breaker. But the hitting ISN'T close. Hernandez was a very good hitter. Cabrera is one of the best right-handed hitters of all time. Hernandez had exactly one season where he hit for a higher average than Miggy's career BA of .322. And the power numbers are a joke to compare.

We are looking at 5 seasons for Miggy vs 16+ for Hernandez. They also played in different era's, so just looking at counting stats is not fair (not saying that if viewed in the right light, they are comparable hitters).

Hernandez was a top-flight player. He won an MVP and finished top 10 in 3 other seasons. ALL AT FIRST BASE. He also won 2 Silver Sluggers, so it isnt like he was JT Snow or Doug Mientkiewicz. He was a well-rounded player.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Miggy has played 7 seasons at 1B and had it be his primary position 6 times. In those 6 seasons he has finished top 10 in MVP voting 4 times with a 13th place one of the other two seasons. IMO he should have won the MVP in 2010 not finished second. So in his short time at 1B he has a better record (or equal depending on your view) MVP wise than Hernandez does in his 9 more seasons there.

 

[Howie115]

Again, I understand the 1B or NOT A 1B argument. But then, Miguel wouldn't have a shot in this contest as a 3B for the same reason. Kind of not fair.

Hernandez WAS a very well-rounded player, and as I said, a very good hitter. That said, his two best seasons, BA-wise, were 1979-80, when he hit .344 and .321. Outside of that, he never hit higher than .311. Cabrera's worst season in the last seven was 2014, when he hit .313, and he did that while playing half the season on one good foot! Hernandez never hit more than 15 HR and topped 100 RBI only once. Cabrera averages over 30 HR a season and has topped 100 RBI in 11 straight seasons. Were it not for 6 weeks lost due to injury this season, it would be 12. I think only Gehrig and A-Rod have matched that in all of MLB history.

 

[calsnowskier]

Again, I understand the 1B or NOT A 1B argument. But then, Miguel wouldn't have a shot in this contest as a 3B for the same reason. Kind of not fair.

Hernandez WAS a very well-rounded player, and as I said, a very good hitter. That said, his two best seasons, BA-wise, were 1979-80, when he hit .344 and .321. Outside of that, he never hit higher than .311. Cabrera's worst season in the last seven was 2014, when he hit .313, and he did that while playing half the season on one good foot! Hernandez never hit more than 15 HR and topped 100 RBI only once. Cabrera averages over 30 HR a season and has topped 100 RBI in 11 straight seasons. Were it not for 6 weeks lost due to injury this season, it would be 12. I think only Gehrig and A-Rod have matched that in all of MLB history.

Miggy is a stud. No question. If we were to take 5-year chunks and vote on who the best player was in each of these 5-year chunks, he would AT WORST be a serious contender.

But when you break it up by position, some players get lost because they played too many different positions (Rose, Biggio, Miggy on the all-time argument; Zobrist as a more recent example). By having Hernandez "win" this matchup, it is NOT saying he was a better player than Miggy. It is saying he had a better 1B career than Miggy has had to this point.

What will Miggy do in the future? Who knows. If he stays at 1B, he will likely go down as one of the best 1B ever. But as it stands now, he simply does not have the reps to qualify.

 

[calsnowskier]

Again, I understand the 1B or NOT A 1B argument. But then, Miguel wouldn't have a shot in this contest as a 3B for the same reason. Kind of not fair.

Dickie Thon was a great prospect. Then he got hit in the face by a fastball and only had a mediocre career (at best). That sucks. That isnt fair. But he should NOT be included in any "Best SS of all time" arguments just to be fair.

Brian Taylor (I think that was his name - Yankee fans, correct me if I have the name wrong) was a top-flight pitching prospect. He broke up a mugging, but got shot. his career was over before it ever started. Not fair, but he will never be in any "Best pitcher ever" discussions.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Dickie Thon was a great prospect. Then he got hit in the face by a fastball and only had a mediocre career (at best). That sucks. That isnt fair. But he should NOT be included in any "Best SS of all time" arguments just to be fair.

Brian Taylor (I think that was his name - Yankee fans, correct me if I have the name wrong) was a top-flight pitching prospect. He broke up a mugging, but got shot. his career was over before it ever started. Not fair, but he will never be in any "Best pitcher ever" discussions.

The name is right, but the story is wrong. Taylor got in a bar fight and screwed his pitching arm up.

 

[calsnowskier]

The name is right, but the story is wrong. Taylor got in a bar fight and screwed his pitching arm up.

I thought it was a much more altruistic story.

Am I getting two prospects confused? I know Taylor was supposed to be "the next big thing", but I wonder if there was another with the mugging story...

 

[obxyankeefan]

The only one I can remember was the Twins and Angels OF from the 70s. The beginning of the movie The Natural was loosely based on him, but I can't remember his name.

Taylor was a great pitcher with Ryan Leaf's brain.

 

[obxyankeefan]

Lyman Bostock was who I was thinking of. And while looking up his name I came across Ryan Bolden former #1 of the Angels was shot and killed. I didn't read the story so I don't know why he was shot.

 

[calsnowskier]

Lyman Bostock was who I was thinking of. And while looking up his name I came across Ryan Bolden former #1 of the Angels was shot and killed. I didn't read the story so I don't know why he was shot.

Interesting find, but not what I was thinking of...

Oh well. My story was better than Taylors real story, so let's go with that...

 

[DragonfromTO]

The only one I can remember was the Twins and Angels OF from the 70s. The beginning of the movie The Natural was loosely based on him, but I can't remember his name.

Taylor was a great pitcher with Ryan Leaf's brain.

The incident in "The Natural" that you're talking about was not based on Bostock, he was only 2 years old when the book was written. It was based on Eddie Waitkus, a Phillies first baseman who was shot by a stalker in the late 40s.

 

[obxyankeefan]

The incident in "The Natural" that you're talking about was not based on Bostock, he was only 2 years old when the book was written. It was based on Eddie Waitkus, a Phillies first baseman who was shot by a stalker in the late 40s.

And I stand corrected.

 

[Villain]

I already stated that Miggy is CLEARLY the better player.

But this is a FIRST BASE discussion. Therefore, including Miggy does not make sense.

That's a debate as to whether to include him in the polling or not. We're not debating that right now. This is Keith Hernandez versus Miguel Cabrera. Since he's included in the vote, he gets my vote.

Tom Hanks is a great actor. Possibly my favorite of all time. But I would not include him in a list of best basketball centers of all time.

This is the second time you've tried this one (the other being about Bonds, Ruth, and Williams). It's a flawed argument as many have pointed out. Miggy has played more than a few token times at 1B. Also, to reiterate, he would've played more had Fielder not been on the team.

Lastly, one question for you. You're building a lineup. You're selecting a first baseman. You can have Miguel Cabrera in his prime or Keith Hernandez in his prime. Those are your only two choices. Go.

 

[calsnowskier]

This isn't about a prime. It is about a career.

6 years at the position does not count compared to 15.

Just because he coulda or shoulda doesn't make a difference. He didn't.

 

[HammerDown]

1B? Hernandez. End of story.

 

[Howie115]

Lastly, one question for you. You're building a lineup. You're selecting a first basemen. You can have Miguel Cabrera in his prime or Keith Hernandez in his prime. Those are your only two choices. Go.

This is the way I read into this contest, otherwise Cabrera would not be a choice at all.