Top 10 poll #8: #8 player in history - Runoff

[msgkings322]

Every one of their players were absolute sweethearts who regularly showed up late to games because they were busy helping little old ladies cross the road…

I had no idea!

 

[Cedrique]

Voted big Train. Cy had 10 years in the 19th Century and the wacky pitching uses. Then feasted on a starter league. Hornsby was a defensive joke. Mantle had too short of a career. Musial was close.

Still beating the drum for Honus. A lonely task

I'm currently on Hornsby but now you guys got me reading articles on his defense. I'm not sure if it will move the needle though. I guess I have a day to change my vote.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Reminds me of the comment about what a huge coincidence it was that Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig’s disease. What are the odds?

lets not bring tommy john into this discussion..

 

[chappee11]

Johnson - 417-279, 2.17, 1.061 WHIP, 3509 K, 531 CG, 110 SHO, 2 MVP (2 additional top 5, 2 more seasons receiving votes)

Young - 511-315, 2.63, 1.130 WHIP, 2803 K, 749 CG, 76 SHO, no awards given during his era

Young retired in ‘11, so it is difficult to look at his numbers from that era and grade them confidently.

Statistically, it looks like Johnson was more dominant(though Young certainly did it longer). The durability on Young is remarkable, though. And the 511 wins is kind of mind-bending. I lean towards Young here(though I voted for Musial).

 

[calsnowskier]

I had no idea!

Fax

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm currently on Hornsby but now you guys got me reading articles on his defense. I'm not sure if it will move the needle though. I guess I have a day to change my vote.

Tomorrow AM

 

[calsnowskier]

lets not bring tommy john into this discussion..

Imagine if Mario Mendoza actually retired with a .200 BA.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Johnson - 417-279, 2.17, 1.061 WHIP, 3509 K, 531 CG, 110 SHO, 2 MVP (2 additional top 5, 2 more seasons receiving votes)

Young - 511-315, 2.63, 1.130 WHIP, 2803 K, 749 CG, 76 SHO, no awards given during his era

Young retired in ‘11, so it is difficult to look at his numbers from that era and grade them confidently.

i dont consider the era to be too different between the 2...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i know i am being unfair... but i do not see how Stan the man can be in the same grouping with the rest of these guys... i am unsure if Musial is even a top 15 player of all time... #8 is almost an insult...

 

[calsnowskier]

Statistically, it looks like Johnson was more dominant(though Young certainly did it longer). The durability on Young is remarkable, though. And the 511 wins is kind of mind-bending. I lean towards Young here(though I voted for Musial).

Young - 22 years, 815 starts, 7356 IP

Johnson - 21 years, 666 starts, 5914 IP

Different eras, but regardless of the arguments (and there are ARGUMENTS!), Young still took the bump and recorded those outs.

 

[Clayton]

i know i am being unfair... but i do not see how Stan the man can be in the same grouping with the rest of these guys... i am unsure if Musial is even a top 15 player of all time... #8 is almost an insult...

You would get so much shit for saying this on a Cardinals website. So much shit

He has accolades, longevity, and advanced stats on his side

 

[calsnowskier]

i dont consider the era to be too different between the 2...

Young played much of his career with the Spiders. That org was actually force-folded by the league because it was owned by the StL owner who ran the two clubs in collusion.

I have a hard time taking much of anything pre-1900 too seriously. It is a bias I have.

 

[Clayton]

If we aren't factoring in accolades or longevity then lets just put Trout in there

 

[calsnowskier]

i know i am being unfair... but i do not see how Stan the man can be in the same grouping with the rest of these guys... i am unsure if Musial is even a top 15 player of all time... #8 is almost an insult...

Mantle is an all timer, sure, but take “NY” off his cap, and he cant hold Musial or Hornsby under things.

 

[LHG]

i know i am being unfair... but i do not see how Stan the man can be in the same grouping with the rest of these guys... i am unsure if Musial is even a top 15 player of all time... #8 is almost an insult...

Player A - 22 seasons, 128.5 WAR, 64.5 WAR7, .331/.417/.559 (.976), 159 OPS+, 725 doubles, 475 home runs, 1951 RBIs, 78 SBs
Player B - 18 seasons, 110.2 WAR, 64.7 WAR7, .298/.421/.557 (.977), 172 OPS+, 344 doubles, 536 home runs, 1509 RBIs, 153 SBs

Is one clearly a notch above the other?

 

[calsnowskier]

You would get so much shit for saying this on a Cardinals website. So much shit

He has accolades, longevity, and advanced stats on his side

We all bring bias. SOME of us just try to account for it in our voting/arguments.

 

[LHG]

Young played much of his career with the Spiders. That org was actually force-folded by the league because it was owned by the StL owner who ran the two clubs in collusion.

I have a hard time taking much of anything pre-1900 too seriously. It is a bias I have.

But one thing you have to stop thinking about pre-1900 is that amateurs and professionals played in the same league. That is absolutely untrue. The National League, when it was formed, saw all players paid. Minor leagues and pre-1876, the National Association were much different. But the NL and the start up leagues (American Association, Union League, etc) did pay all their players. Now some teams couldn't keep up the payments but they were professional players.

 

[calsnowskier]

Player A - 22 seasons, 128.5 WAR, 64.5 WAR7, .331/.417/.559 (.976), 159 OPS+, 725 doubles, 475 home runs, 1951 RBIs, 78 SBs
Player B - 18 seasons, 110.2 WAR, 64.7 WAR7, .298/.421/.557 (.977), 172 OPS+, 344 doubles, 536 home runs, 1509 RBIs, 153 SBs

Is one clearly a notch above the other?

Yes. Musial is CLEARLY a notch above.

 

[LHG]

Yes. Musial is CLEARLY a notch above.

Only two things in Mantle's favor is that he does have a higher OPS+ and leads in the sexy stat of home runs (okay, and he stole more bases). Otherwise, its either Musial or a wash in the other stats.

 

[calsnowskier]

Only two things in Mantle's favor is that he does have a higher OPS+ and leads in the sexy stat of home runs (okay, and he stole more bases). Otherwise, its either Musial or a wash in the other stats.

I don’t put a LOT of stock in career rate stats. WAR#, career WAR, bolded numbers, accolades…. Those are the main things I look at. And Musial was MVP runner up 4 times.