Top 10 poll: #6 player ever

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t think “the blind eye” has affected Clemens YET. If another pitcher gets the first pitcher slot, THEN that point can be made.

ARod, however, is a different story. Without “the blind eye”, he would likely already be on the board. There is the difference with him actually getting caught, though.

the blind eye willl affect clemens more than bonds though... because his peers are closer to him... Maddux, Randy, pedro... not to mention the not those era guys...

Bonds was the clear 1B or second best player of all time, without the ding....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Snark aside, he is probably the next “bat” on my list after Cobb and Hornsby.

i do find it interresting that there is a bigger push for Lou Gehrig than hornsby... both played in the same era as Ruth... but Gehrig, just has all the outside baseball reasons...

i do think Cobb should be over both of them... just because he was actually the best of his era...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

However, 723 steals while only getting caught 26 times makes Rickey look like a guy who was just out for a lazy Sunday stroll.

except the term stolen base was not the same back then...

 

[Clayton]

i do find it interresting that there is a bigger push for Lou Gehrig than hornsby... both played in the same era as Ruth... but Gehrig, just has all the outside baseball reasons...

i do think Cobb should be over both of them... just because he was actually the best of his era...

I think Mantle is the interesting one, tbh. I think he might end up jumping 3-6 players he shouldn't imo

 

[TheGoodMan19]

i do find it interresting that there is a bigger push for Lou Gehrig than hornsby... both played in the same era as Ruth... but Gehrig, just has all the outside baseball reasons...

i do think Cobb should be over both of them... just because he was actually the best of his era...

Gehrig benefited greatly from being in the middle of the Murderer's Row lineups. Not saying he was a .220 hitter otherwise. The lineups around Hornsby were good, but not that good. But Lou was much better with his glove than the Rajah. He was a team leader and not a clubhouse cancer. And he wasn't a horses ass like Hornsby.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

I think Mantle is the interesting one, tbh. I think he might end up jumping 3-6 players he shouldn't imo

Mantle is almost a mythological creature. Only Ruth has the aura of Mantle. As far as God given talent, the Mick would be #1 o the list. Greatest power/speed combination ever. Many say he was the fastest from home to 1st in history. In his first season. Then pretty much played on one leg for the rest of his career. And his drinking hurt his career but I'm not giving him bonus points for that.

 

[Clayton]

Mantle is almost a mythological creature.

Thats about right. We could certainly get into the argument about what the list is supposed to mean with theoretical Mantle near the very top but his WAR stat being 21st.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Thats about right. We could certainly get into the argument about what the list is supposed to mean with theoretical Mantle near the very top but his WAR stat being 21st.

Same thing with a theoretical Junior Griffey. Had he stayed healthy, he would have been top five.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think Mantle is the interesting one, tbh. I think he might end up jumping 3-6 players he shouldn't imo

i got mantle very high.. higher than Gehrig... His thing is that his best sesaons were more elite than most other all time greats best seasons...


but he took steroids... so... maybe we should ding him too...

 

[DorianRo]

Should we have a roid era and pre roid era? I know players used to take the amphetamines but those don't make you crank out HR's like a bull like roids do

 

[Clayton]

i got mantle very high.. higher than Gehrig... His thing is that his best sesaons were more elite than most other all time greats best seasons...

I know you've been talking about other stats but War7 doesnt fully support that statement.

Same thing with a theoretical Junior Griffey. Had he stayed healthy, he would have been top five.

For sure. I do also think the shift really screwed Pujols. Not sure how much that ruins his legacy but I think Pujols led the league in 'hard hit outs' for a few years so he was certainly figured out.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Should we have a roid era and pre roid era? I know players used to take the amphetamines but those don't make you crank out HR's like a bull like roids do

We already separate 19th Century pitchers (pre lively balls pitchers also) from modern ones. Ask 100 baseball fans, real fans, who holds the single season strikeout record. How many do you think say Matt Kilroy? It's his with 513 in 1886, 130 more than Nolan Ryan in 1973. Different game.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I know you've been talking about other stats but War7 doesnt fully support that statement.


For sure. I do also think the shift really screwed Pujols. Not sure how much that ruins his legacy but I think Pujols led the league in 'hard hit outs' for a few years so he was certainly figured out.

even taking WAR.... look at the single seasons... you will see Mickey is top 20 twice....

I really am not a WAR guy... but i do admit i will use it for quick opinions about a player... I do like WAR7 a lot... but if the intent of it is to show how good someone's prime is... i would also want to weigh the best seasons higher... and an all-timer should have some all-time seasons... shouldnt they??

that is why i am not very high on Trout.... he has a good WAR7, but he never had that single season of absolute hero-ness...


but my knock on Gehrig wasnt really about his WAR7, it was more simply that he wasnt the best player of his time... and he had help making his numbers look so great having Ruth...


honestly, Ruth takes Gehrig out of the top 10 for me...

 

[calsnowskier]

Same thing with a theoretical Junior Griffey. Had he stayed healthy, he would have been top five.

Health is part of the game. The best ability is availability.

 

[calsnowskier]

We already separate 19th Century pitchers (pre lively balls pitchers also) from modern ones. Ask 100 baseball fans, real fans, who holds the single season strikeout record. How many do you think say Matt Kilroy? It's his with 513 in 1886, 130 more than Nolan Ryan in 1973. Different game.

The game was still in development back then. I BELIEVE that a foul ball with 2 strikes was considered a strike out at that time. So yes, Kilroy holds the record, but that is a bastardized number when compared to the “current” game.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Health is part of the game. The best ability is availability.

So Harold Baines over Mickey Mantle...

 

[calsnowskier]

even taking WAR.... look at the single seasons... you will see Mickey is top 20 twice....

I really am not a WAR guy... but i do admit i will use it for quick opinions about a player... I do like WAR7 a lot... but if the intent of it is to show how good someone's prime is... i would also want to weigh the best seasons higher... and an all-timer should have some all-time seasons... shouldnt they??

that is why i am not very high on Trout.... he has a good WAR7, but he never had that single season of absolute hero-ness...


but my knock on Gehrig wasnt really about his WAR7, it was more simply that he wasnt the best player of his time... and he had help making his numbers look so great having Ruth...


honestly, Ruth takes Gehrig out of the top 10 for me...

If Ruth was so good he is able to remove an all time great like Gehrig out of the “top 10”, couldn’t the reverse be said as well? That the existence of Gehrig helped Ruth enough to drop him a few slots?

 

[calsnowskier]

So Harold Baines over Mickey Mantle...

“Part of the game”, not “the entire game”.

But Aaron is already off the board…

 

[TheGoodMan19]

The game was still in development back then. I BELIEVE that a foul ball with 2 strikes was considered a strike out at that time. So yes, Kilroy holds the record, but that is a bastardized number when compared to the “current” game.

It was a different game. Pitcher were expected to go nine innings, same as everyone else. No four or five man rotations. But, most 19th Century pitchers were junkballers. Throwing lollypop curves and doctored baseballs that had a shape closer to a baked potato than a modern ball

 

[calsnowskier]

Great discussion for the spots that are coming up.

But can anyone put up a legit argument for anyone over Cobb at this spot? The nomination process is indicating that this will be a runaway for Cobb.