Top 10 poll: #6 player ever

[MilkSpiller22]

I think it is getting close to the point of looking at pitchers. I can be convinced otherwise, but I think the top pitcher is Clemens. His durability numbers don’t compare to the old-timers, but he pitched for 24 years in an era where 250 IP was elite. In the era he pitched, with Maddux, Randy and Pedro, he stood above them all.

He still won’t get my VOTE over Cobb, but I think he deserves nominations at this point.

thats my problem.. i would love to nominate a pitcher... but unlike offensive bats, i have no clue how to even start with pitchers...

offense has basically stayed the same throughout time... sure, the HR ball became popular starting in the 1920s, so before that, it is all Batting average and OBP...

but pitching has changed so much, we have pitchers who threw nearly 400 innings in a season, and that is even before 162 game seasons...

then we have pitchers just over 300 innings, before relief pitchers became a big thing

then we have 200+ innings guys

and now we dont even have many 200 innings guys...

just by the evolution of innings... how do we rank... do we give credit for the ones who pitched more in individual seasons??

and WAR, WAR7 are most affected by innings pitched... so it is not a coincidence that of the top 10 WAR7 guys 9 of them retired before 1930...

 

[obxyankeefan]

I still say it is a crime that the one that is only ahead in BA and career WAR is on this list and getting votes, but the other one is just completely ignored in these discussions.

False poll is false

 

[calsnowskier]

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I still say it is a crime that the one that is only ahead in BA and career WAR is on this list and getting votes, but the other one is just completely ignored in these discussions.

False poll is false

So bring him up and pitch. Sitting on the sidelines and only cryptically hinting at an OBVIOUS oversight just makes you the cause of your own gripes.

 

[obxyankeefan]

So bring him up and pitch. Sitting on the sidelines and only cryptically hinting at an OBVIOUS oversight just makes you the cause of your own gripes.

I brought it up a few votes a go. Al Kaline

 

[calsnowskier]

I brought it up a few votes a go. Al Kaline

Bringing a dude up 1 time in 7 nomination posts qualifies as sitting on the sidelines. Who is the other player who you are claiming is “getting votes”?

Edit: Clemente is on the list because people brought him up. IMHO, he is getting votes from “fans”, not from people who actually believe he belongs in the discussion at this point. IMHO, he doesn’t deserve votes at this point, but others do, so he does.

Why anyone complains about who gets added (or NOT added) to the very bottom of the list is beyond me. Kaline is still a long way from SERIOUSLY being considered in any of these polls.

 

[Clayton]

I think it is getting close to the point of looking at pitchers. I can be convinced otherwise, but I think the top pitcher is Clemens. His durability numbers don’t compare to the old-timers, but he pitched for 24 years in an era where 250 IP was elite. In the era he pitched, with Maddux, Randy and Pedro, he stood above them all.

He still won’t get my VOTE over Cobb, but I think he deserves nominations at this point.

If we're turning a blind eye to things, Clemens is also my top pitcher. I think Walter Johnson #2.

I personally wont be voting for him over someone like Musial who has similar WAR (had he not missed a year) and MVPs and post season success but thats only because of the perception of Clemens. And Im probably a homer.

 

[calsnowskier]

If we're turning a blind eye to things, Clemens is also my top pitcher. I think Walter Johnson #2.

I personally wont be voting for him over someone like Musial who has similar WAR (had he not missed a year) and MVPs and post season success but thats only because of the perception of Clemens. And Im probably a homer.

I don’t trust WAR for pitchers in anything beyond a quick glance at a first attempt at sorting. At least in comparison to hitters.

I view Clemens the same as I view Bonds as far as the “blind eye” issue. He never broke a baseball rule (at least he was never got caught breaking a baseball rule).

I will not die on the Clemens hill vs Johnson, Paige, Young, etc, though. I agree that it is REALLY hard to compare pitchers of different eras. There isn’t a stat like OPS+ that is a good start for comparing eras.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If we're turning a blind eye to things, Clemens is also my top pitcher. I think Walter Johnson #2.

I personally wont be voting for him over someone like Musial who has similar WAR (had he not missed a year) and MVPs and post season success but thats only because of the perception of Clemens. And Im probably a homer.

the blind eye, this is what i dont like about how we voted on bonds...

so, we dinged bonds, but we did not say the ding was big enough...

Clemens, i think is by far the best, he checks every box... he has longevity, he has the elite individual seasons, he has WS championship and pitching success...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t trust WAR for pitchers in anything beyond a quick glance at a first attempt at sorting. At least in comparison to hitters.

I view Clemens the same as I view Bonds as far as the “blind eye” issue. He never broke a baseball rule (at least he was never got caught breaking a baseball rule).

I will not die on the Clemens hill vs Johnson, Paige, Young, etc, though. I agree that it is REALLY hard to compare pitchers of different eras. There isn’t a stat like OPS+ that is a good start for comparing eras.

not that OPS+ is actually a good stat for comparing eras... its just the best stat we currently have...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Bringing a dude up 1 time in 7 nomination posts qualifies as sitting on the sidelines. Who is the other player who you are claiming is “getting votes”?

Edit: Clemente is on the list because people brought him up. IMHO, he is getting votes from “fans”, not from people who actually believe he belongs in the discussion at this point. IMHO, he doesn’t deserve votes at this point, but others do, so he does.

Why anyone complains about who gets added (or NOT added) to the very bottom of the list is beyond me. Kaline is still a long way from SERIOUSLY being considered in any of these polls.

clemente is on there because of his story... not because of his play... and this crowd clearly considers legend status because of outside intangibles as much if not more than actual play on the field(not sure if this is a good thing or not)

 

[calsnowskier]

the blind eye, this is what i dont like about how we voted on bonds...

so, we dinged bonds, but we did not say the ding was big enough...

Clemens, i think is by far the best, he checks every box... he has longevity, he has the elite individual seasons, he has WS championship and pitching success...

I don’t think “the blind eye” has affected Clemens YET. If another pitcher gets the first pitcher slot, THEN that point can be made.

ARod, however, is a different story. Without “the blind eye”, he would likely already be on the board. There is the difference with him actually getting caught, though.

 

[Clayton]

the blind eye, this is what i dont like about how we voted on bonds...

so, we dinged bonds, but we did not say the ding was big enough...

Clemens, i think is by far the best, he checks every box... he has longevity, he has the elite individual seasons, he has WS championship and pitching success...

This is pretty much how democracy works in America, right? Its a line of best fit between two distinctly different world views. I suspect Clemens will suffer a similar fate and let a couple of players sneak in before him.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

So little love for The Flying Dutchman

7th in lifetime WAR
8th in lifetime hits
10th in lifetime steals
8th in lifetime singles
8 NL Batting titles
almost universally cited as the greatest SS ever

 

[calsnowskier]

So little love for The Flying Dutchman

7th in lifetime WAR
8th in lifetime hits
10th in lifetime steals
8th in lifetime singles
8 NL Batting titles
almost universally cited as the greatest SS ever

Meh.

Not a single all star appearance. And no MVPs. Clearly he was not viewed as much during his playing days.

 

[Clayton]

So little love for The Flying Dutchman

7th in lifetime WAR
8th in lifetime hits
10th in lifetime steals
8th in lifetime singles
8 NL Batting titles
almost universally cited as the greatest SS ever

I'm wondering if him and Hornsby will get more votes once Cobb leaves the board. FWIW, you just got me to change my vote

 

[calsnowskier]

However, 723 steals while only getting caught 26 times makes Rickey look like a guy who was just out for a lazy Sunday stroll.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm wondering if him and Hornsby will get more votes once Cobb leaves the board. FWIW, you just got me to change my vote

Snark aside, he is probably the next “bat” on my list after Cobb and Hornsby.

 

[Clayton]

However, 723 steals while only getting caught 26 times makes Rickey look like a guy who was just out for a lazy Sunday stroll.

To be fair, the 1980s were a 'if you have it then flaunt it' type of era.

 

[calsnowskier]

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I still say it is a crime that the one that is only ahead in BA and career WAR is on this list and getting votes, but the other one is just completely ignored in these discussions.

False poll is false

Starting next round, I will add a “Write-In” vote. For now, I will only have 1, but if the need develops, I may add multiples.

 

[calsnowskier]

To be fair, the 1980s were a 'if you have it then flaunt it' type of era.

In this case, it was more of a “if you DONT have it, exploit it” (referring to a caught stealing stat)