POLL Top 10 poll: #29 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)
18) Greg Maddux (defeated Albert Pujols 17-9)
19) Joe DiMaggio (defeated Albert Pujols 17-13)
20) Albert Pujols (defeated Pedro Martinez 16-14)
21) Pedro Martinez (defeated Jimmie Foxx 20-10)
22) Jimmie Foxx (defeated Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Christy Mathewson 16-12-2-1)
23) Cy Young (defeated Lefty Grove 17-13)
24) Lefty Grove (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 21-9)
25) Ken Griffey Jr (defeated Alex Rodriguez 14-12)
26) Christy Mathewson (defeated Sandy Koufax and Alex Rodriguez 16-10-5)
27) Frank Robinson (defeated Sandy Koufax 16-10)
28) Sandy Koufax (defeated Alex Rodriguez 17-14)

Who is the #29 player ever? This poll will close Wednesday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[MilkSpiller22]

im going with the three 2B... just because i want to debate about them...

my quick chart on the 3

BA#1

BA#5

BB#1

BB#5

HR#1

HR#5

SB#1

SB#5

WAR#1

WAR#5

SPECIAL

BPOT

Morgan

0​

2​

4​

11​

0​

1​

0​

10.00​

4​

2​

1​

2​

lajoie

5​

3​

0​

0​

1​

2​

0​

0.00​

6​

3​

1​

0​

collins

0​

10​

1​

10​

0​

1​

4​

9.00​

1​

9​

1​

4​

small notes

Collins career, he was one of the best SB guys... but SBs were different when he played.... teams would do the Hit and Run on almost every play that someone was on base.... Collins also played against Ty cobb... who is the biggest reason Collins does not have many BEST ranked seasons...

Lajoie seemed to be the best slugger of the three... but reminder that pre 1920s nobody really hit HRs...

Morgan is the only of the three that played in modern baseball with modern rules and less restrictions on players...

 

[LHG]

im going with the three 2B... just because i want to debate about them...

my quick chart on the 3

BA#1

BA#5

BB#1

BB#5

HR#1

HR#5

SB#1

SB#5

WAR#1

WAR#5

SPECIAL

BPOT

Morgan

0​

2​

4​

11​

0​

1​

0​

10.00​

4​

2​

1​

2​

lajoie

5​

3​

0​

0​

1​

2​

0​

0.00​

6​

3​

1​

0​

collins

0​

10​

1​

10​

0​

1​

4​

9.00​

1​

9​

1​

4​

small notes

Collins career, he was one of the best SB guys... but SBs were different when he played.... teams would do the Hit and Run on almost every play that someone was on base.... Collins also played against Ty cobb... who is the biggest reason Collins does not have many BEST ranked seasons...

Lajoie seemed to be the best slugger of the three... but reminder that pre 1920s nobody really hit HRs...

Morgan is the only of the three that played in modern baseball with modern rules and less restrictions on players...

I had them ranked as Collins, Lajoie and Morgan but am willing to go Lajoie, Collins and Morgan.

I'm curious what you mean by less restrictions on players.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I had them ranked as Collins, Lajoie and Morgan but am willing to go Lajoie, Collins and Morgan.

I'm curious what you mean by less restrictions on players.

poorly worded... just meant there were less restrictions on who they let play..

Collins is my clear last place player of the three... but it might be entirely because of Cobb... but Morgan played against great players too... and he was able to pull out a few BEST seasons...

 

[LHG]

Koufax was really jumping the shark on this poll and kind of kills it for me but I'll still participate because its almost done. Here's an updated chart for ranked players:

 

[steveringo]

Yeah, I picked Yaz, so what?!

Also going Mariano Rivera. It is time.

 

[LHG]

poorly worded... just meant there were less restrictions on who they let play..

Collins is my clear last place player of the three... but it might be entirely because of Cobb...

Why does Cobb makes Collins rank so low? We are in the tier where any player we vote for is going to have 1 to 3 other players from the same time period. The fact that Collins was almost as good as the 6th ranked player should help him.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah, I picked Yaz, so what?!

Also going Mariano Rivera. It is time.

View attachment 392793

Not as much as it's time for Kershaw (same chart as evidence)

 

[LHG]

Yeah, I picked Yaz, so what?!

Also going Mariano Rivera. It is time.

View attachment 392793

I think Yaz should be in the discussions now but I think Rivera is down a ways. Still too many starting pitchers that I'd rank over him.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Why does Cobb makes Collins rank so low? We are in the tier where any player we vote for is going to have 1 to 3 other players from the same time period. The fact that Collins was almost as good as the 6th ranked player should help him.

well "SO LOW" only means the #3 of the next top 3 2B...

 

[LHG]

well "SO LOW" only means the #3 of the next top 3 2B...

Would you rank them in order 28 - 30? Based on your own chart, I don't know why you'd rank Collins 3rd.

 

[Clayton]

Rivera this early is just insanity imo.

 

[LHG]

Here are the next 10 hitters on my radar. This OPS+ bucket chart is not necessarily in order of how I'd rank them, just in order of the percentage of their seasons ranked in these buckets.

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career

Ranked %

Mike Trout

0​

2​

2​

4​

3​

0​

1​

1​

0​

13​

14​

93%​

Roger Connor

1​

0​

2​

2​

4​

2​

1​

1​

2​

15​

18​

83%​

Mel Ott

0​

0​

0​

5​

3​

6​

0​

4​

0​

18​

22​

82%​

Dan Brouthers

2​

2​

2​

3​

2​

0​

1​

2​

0​

14​

19​

74%​

Alex Rodriguez

0​

0​

0​

2​

3​

2​

1​

5​

3​

16​

22​

73%​

Eddie Mathews

0​

0​

0​

3​

2​

2​

2​

1​

2​

12​

17​

71%​

Nap Lajoie

1​

2​

0​

0​

2​

2​

2​

4​

0​

13​

21​

62%​

Eddie Collins

0​

0​

0​

2​

3​

2​

3​

3​

2​

15​

25​

60%​

Carl Yastrezemski

0​

1​

0​

2​

0​

1​

2​

2​

4​

12​

23​

52%​

Joe Morgan

0​

0​

1​

0​

1​

2​

1​

5​

0​

10​

22​

45%​

 

[LHG]

And here is an ERA+ bucket chart of the pitchers who I'd think should at least be considered before Bob Gibson:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Seasons Ranked
Clayton Kershaw	1​	2​	0​	4​	1​	1​	2​	2​	0​	13​
Grover Alexander	1​	0​	0​	1​	4​	1​	0​	1​	8​	16​
Justin Verlander	1​	0​	0​	2​	2​	0​	1​	3​	4​	13​
Mordecai Brown	1​	1​	0​	1​	1​	1​	1​	2​	2​	10​
Roy Halladay	0​	0​	1​	0​	2​	3​	3​	0​	2​	11​
Tom Seaver	0​	1​	0​	1​	1​	0​	4​	2​	4​	13​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	2​	2​	1​	1​	4​	2​	12​
Kevin Brown	1​	0​	0​	0​	3​	2​	1​	1​	0​	8​
Max Scherzer	0​	0​	0​	1​	3​	1​	3​	0​	2​	10​
Hal Newhouser	0​	2​	0​	0​	1​	1​	2​	1​	1​	8​
Zack Greinke	2​	0​	0​	0​	0​	1​	1​	2​	4​	10​
Johan Santana	0​	0​	1​	0​	2​	2​	1​	2​	1​	9​
Bob Gibson	1​	0​	0​	0​	1​	1​	1​	4​	3​	11​

 

[MilkSpiller22]

here is my last attempt to show you guys the problem with OPS+ and ERA+

look at the 2025 season coming up...

We all know that the national league looks like they have the better teams... better players....

not saying the AL or any single team is bad...

now, what if Judge and Ohtani(or insert any player from the AL and insert any player from the NL) have the exact same season...

and lets say we are right that the NL average OBP and Slugging is higher...

then that would mean Judge has the better OPS+ season...


now lets say both leagues have the same average OBP and Slugging(would we account that to better players facing better players??)

that would mean both players would have the same OPS+, but we have already had the opinion that the NL is better... so would their same OPS+ be treated the same??



point is when adjusting to the average, you are not taking into account the strength of the league itself, nor are you taking into account the variance of the numbers( what if it is top heavy)

the above logic is same for ERA+...



sure.... taking context out of stats is fine... but not in an adjusted stat that attempts to compare the context...

again all the + stats are is comparing a player to the average player of that season... that is all...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i will add... the way that OPS+ is calculated is by adding OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG(NOT THE FULL FORMULA)

meaning it does not use league OPS...

which also means the player with the higher OPS might not have the higher OPS+ as it all depends on the lg average on both...

sure that sounds fine... but when there was already a mathematical problem with OPS, now you are weighing the numbers differently... and not consistently...

OPS already was a stat that mathematically didnt work but we overlooked it because the results looked nice... why are we doubling down on bad math??

 

[Wamu]

Voted for Clemente.

Can't vote for that cheater A-Roid.

To me his stats are invalid. He shouldn't have knowingly cheated the game like all the others directly connected to the **steroid era**.

 

[msgkings322]

The catcher votes need to pick a lane, Bench or Berra, if they want to get on this list in the next 2 spots before it's done...they keep splitting those votes. I just switched to Bench from Berra for that reason, he has more support.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Voted for Clemente.

Can't vote for that cheater A-Roid.

To me his stats are invalid. He shouldn't have knowingly cheated the game like all the others directly connected to the **steroid era**.

i dont mind that logic... problem i have though is that we have already had steroid players in... so depending on your view on the difference between the circumstances, a list that includes them already, how can you not include the next...

you have to decide whether Bonds/Clemens is the same as AROD or if it is different... both are valid...

 

[LHG]

Here are the next 10 hitters on my radar. This OPS+ bucket chart is not necessarily in order of how I'd rank them, just in order of the percentage of their seasons ranked in these buckets.

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career

Ranked %

Mike Trout

0​

2​

2​

4​

3​

0​

1​

1​

0​

13​

14​

93%​

Roger Connor

1​

0​

2​

2​

4​

2​

1​

1​

2​

15​

18​

83%​

Mel Ott

0​

0​

0​

5​

3​

6​

0​

4​

0​

18​

22​

82%​

Dan Brouthers

2​

2​

2​

3​

2​

0​

1​

2​

0​

14​

19​

74%​

Alex Rodriguez

0​

0​

0​

2​

3​

2​

1​

5​

3​

16​

22​

73%​

Eddie Mathews

0​

0​

0​

3​

2​

2​

2​

1​

2​

12​

17​

71%​

Nap Lajoie

1​

2​

0​

0​

2​

2​

2​

4​

0​

13​

21​

62%​

Eddie Collins

0​

0​

0​

2​

3​

2​

3​

3​

2​

15​

25​

60%​

Carl Yastrezemski

0​

1​

0​

2​

0​

1​

2​

2​

4​

12​

23​

52%​

Joe Morgan

0​

0​

1​

0​

1​

2​

1​

5​

0​

10​

22​

45%​

Voted for Clemente.

Can't vote for that cheater A-Roid.

To me his stats are invalid. He shouldn't have knowingly cheated the game like all the others directly connected to the **steroid era**.

I understand the feelings on ARod but why Clemente and not any of the others in the above list?