POLL Top 10 poll #16: #16 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #16 player in baseball history. Poll closes Sunday AM.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG @Stokes1931
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@Shanemansj13 @jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22 @chappee11
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242 @PolarVortex
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007

 

[Clayton]

Speakers WAR is 134.9 and Johnsons is 101.1 and they played the same number of years.

I expect Johnson to win this easily

 

[calsnowskier]

Speakers WAR is 134.9 and Johnsons is 101.1 and they played the same number of years.

I expect Johnson to win this easily

Pitcher WAR is essentially a randomized number.

i am 100% AOK with Speaker taking this spot, but my vote is going to Johnson.

 

[Clayton]

Pitcher WAR is essentially a randomized number.

I know but the player with a gaudy WAR is a Centerfielder.

You have maybe the best doubles hitter and maybe the best strikeout pitcher. Its probably about right for this spot.

 

[calsnowskier]

REALLY hard to compare pitchers and hitters, but does anyone else have an argument for one over the other?

 

[calsnowskier]

I am going pitcher here because I think there is enough of a gap at this point in hitters that pitchers need some representation. The ‘90s/‘00s pitchers (Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Martinez) were all-time great, and I think all should be off the board at about about the same time (now).

Speaker, however, imho was a decent step behind the other GREATS of his own era. His numbers are gaudy as fuck, I grant. But they are significantly lower than a solid handful of his contemporaries.

 

[Clayton]

Speaker, however, imho was a decent step behind the other GREATS of his own era. His numbers are gaudy as fuck, I grant. But they are significantly lower than a solid handful of his contemporaries.

Clemens numbers in some ways are significantly better than the other pitchers.

I think it's just down to personal preference

 

[calsnowskier]

Clemens numbers in some ways are significantly better than the other pitchers.

I think it's just down to personal preference

Absolutely. And the delta between Speaker and Johnson falls well within the opinion-range, so either getting this spot is totally fine.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Absolutely. And the delta between Speaker and Johnson falls well within the opinion-range, so either getting this spot is totally fine.

The big 4 is where I feel like I may be hypocritical.

I think Pedro was probably the best in short term. But they are close enough to make the long primes of the other 3 to be over Pedro.

But after Johnson, who was my pick for this slot from the beginning, I might not have Maddux and/or Martinez in my top 20.

similar to the problem I have with speaker. That we may be giving too much love to the pitchers in the steroid era.

 

[calsnowskier]

The big 4 is where I feel like I may be hypocritical.

I think Pedro was probably the best in short term. But they are close enough to make the long primes of the other 3 to be over Pedro.

But after Johnson, who was my pick for this slot from the beginning, I might not have Maddux and/or Martinez in my top 20.

similar to the problem I have with speaker. That we may be giving too much love to the pitchers in the steroid era.

Groupings and representation unfortunately play a part here. In the grand scale, Speaker is not THAT different from Wagner or Hornsby. And Johnson and Maddux are very similar. The difference between groups is personal preference. If Speaker for a slot above Wagner, I would not have agreed, but I would not have “stormed off”. They are VERY similar. Same with Johnson/Maddux/Martinez. I prefer Maddux of the three, but I feel totally comfortable bending my opinion to the mob because the mob is essentially right (right enough, at least).

Was the inevitable pitcher-run delayed because of Clemens creating a blockage? Possibly. But when you are doing a group list, then groupthink becomes a thing.

 

[eaglesnut]

We gotta get Mathewson in the conversation.

The greatest World Series of all time.
Mathewson’s Series totals: 27 IP, 13 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 18 SO, 1 HBP, 0.77 WHIP

Lead the league in K's 5 times. K/BB 7 times.

One of the first 5 voted into the Hall.

 

[calsnowskier]

We gotta get Mathewson in the conversation.

The greatest World Series of all time.
Mathewson’s Series totals: 27 IP, 13 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 18 SO, 1 HBP, 0.77 WHIP

Lead the league in K's 5 times. K/BB 7 times.

One of the first 5 voted into the Hall.

I have the ”current” guys as the GOATS, but Young and Mathewson are right there as well.

 

[calsnowskier]

About 8.5 hours to go..

 

[Pure Steel]

REALLY hard to compare pitchers and hitters, but does anyone else have an argument for one over the other?

Johnson was taller…..

 

[msgkings322]

Johnson was taller…..

No one's ever done anything as cool as killing a bird with a fastball. On tape. Tie breaker.

 

[calsnowskier]

Johnson was taller…..

Solid point.

Is it fair to accept this as fact? Is anyone going to argue the opposite!