tOfficial 2015 NBA Draft/Free Agency Thread

[TurnUpTheHeat]

This is why his Finals record matters. "When I say that I really believe it".

Still nitpicking.
What did he say that he didn't believe that night?

His beliefs obviously changed between then and last summer, and he learned from the backlash to take the much more modest approach.

There is a reason the clip is edited down to that.
Play the whole thing including the question asked and its interpreted totally different.

 

[gordontrue]

Probably because it's a loss no matter how you shuffle the contents. If he competes, win or lose, it's forever a part of his record.

Fair enough. But when we look at Finals records... we only see the losses from the Finals. What is the purpose of that?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Probably because it's a loss no matter how you shuffle the contents. If he competes, win or lose, it's forever a part of his record.

Nobody said it isn't part of his record.
Every stat/good or bad is, even ones from earlier rounds.

 

[LAD]

I am still baffled by the thought that some believe the losses where LBJ wasn't the favorite to win shouldn't be included in his record, or held against him.

What about the seasons in which MJ lost in the early rounds of the playoffs? He wasn't the favorite to win in those seasons and so because he lost as expected should those be stricken from his record? How about Kobe? Particularly those seasons after Shaq and before Pau when he took an otherwise talentless team to the playoffs in the WC multiple seasons. Clearly he wasn't the favorite in any of those seasons so those losses should be stricken from his record as well?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Probably because it's a loss no matter how you shuffle the contents. If he competes, win or lose, it's forever a part of his record.

So, by your logic, you believe that Eli is better then Peyton?

 

[LAD]

Fair enough. But when we look at Finals records... we only see the losses from the Finals. What is the purpose of that?

Who only sees losses? His record of 2-4 includes both wins and losses. I think in this case there are more losses than wins so that is the number that sticks out.

 

[LAD]

Nobody said it isn't part of his record.
Every stat/good or bad is, even ones from earlier rounds.

Correct, so please help me understand what you mean when you say his losses were held against him. In what manner?

 

[LAD]

So, by your logic, you believe that Eli is better then Peyton?

Honestly, I don't follow football so couldn't possibly give any type of accurate debate on either Eli or Peyton. And for the record, don't really care to since I don't enjoy football.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I am still baffled by the thought that some believe the losses where LBJ wasn't the favorite to win shouldn't be included in his record, or held against him.

What about the seasons in which MJ lost in the early rounds of the playoffs? He wasn't the favorite to win in those seasons and so because he lost as expected should those be stricken from his record? How about Kobe? Particularly those seasons after Shaq and before Pau when he took an otherwise talentless team to the playoffs in the WC multiple seasons. Clearly he wasn't the favorite in any of those seasons so those losses should be stricken from his record as well?

I said I don't remember every series ( thank God) that all these players were in, and nobody said the results don't count.

My belief though, is if the team was not perceived as the better team, then taking the loss isn't that much of a negative on the resume.

 

[LAD]

I said I don't remember every series ( thank God) that all these players were in, and nobody said the results don't count.

My belief though, is if the team was not perceived as the better team, then taking the loss isn't that much of a negative on the resume.

I just think a loss is a loss no matter what. They play the games for a reason so there isn't any debate on who would've, could've won.

 

[trojanfan12]

That's a very logical argument, but so is the other side that says if a player is so good that he gets a team to overachieve to even be in the Finals before losing to a much better team, how is that a negative?

I don't really consider it a negative, so much as I just don't factor it in. When it comes to ranking the all-time greats (which in itself is kind of silly, but we all do it anyway), it really ends up coming down to splitting hairs. Just a matter of which hairs one wants to split.

Using the old Kobe/Lebron debate. If you want to favor Kobe, you look at things like number of rings, the fact that he's the only player in league history with over 30,000 points and 6,000 assists and that he won titles with 2 completely different rosters. If you want to favor Lebron, you look at the number of MVP's that he won and that he managed to get a team to the finals that had no business being there and how well he played in this past finals with so many injuries on his team.

End of the day, we should probably just all be appreciative of all of the great players and view them equally, but we know that ain't gonna happen.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Honestly, I don't follow football so couldn't possibly give any type of accurate debate on either Eli or Peyton. And for the record, don't really care to since I don't enjoy football.

You don't have to follow anything.
You only seem to care about results from championship games.

So, if Peyton is 1-2 and Eli is 2-0, you have to believe Eli is the better player when clearly he isn't.

 

[LAD]

You don't have to follow anything.
You only seem to care about results from championship games.

So, if Peyton is 1-2 and Eli is 2-0, you have to believe Eli is the better player when clearly he isn't.

Well yes I care about results from championship games when that is what the debate is about, as was the case here today.

But again, using the Eli/Peyton suggestion would bring us back to my earlier statement about you throwing random tidbits into debates to see what shakes loose.

 

[trojanfan12]

You don't have to follow anything.
You only seem to care about results from championship games.

So, if Peyton is 1-2 and Eli is 2-0, you have to believe Eli is the better player when clearly he isn't.

That seems like just a different version of the old Robert Horry argument. Peyton is an all time great. Eli isn't.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I just think a loss is a loss no matter what. They play the games for a reason so there isn't any debate on who would've, could've won.

There is no debate, and in a 7 game series, the best team wins, regardless of round.

When we lost to Dallas, we weren't the better team.
Had James played better, maybe we would have been.

There was nothing he could have done in any of his other 3 Finals losses that could have made his team the better team.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Well yes I care about results from championship games when that is what the debate is about, as was the case here today.

But again, using the Eli/Peyton suggestion would bring us back to my earlier statement about you throwing random tidbits into debates to see what shakes loose.

So we weren't discussing results from James' championship series?

The Eli/Peyton stats are a perfect example of why results in championships aren't usually the best measuring stick of greatness.

Reality is, individual stats are a better tool when comparing player to player and titles are better when you're comparing team to team.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

That seems like just a different version of the old Robert Horry argument. Peyton is an all time great. Eli isn't.

Eli's not an all time great carreer wise, but if you are talking post season his stats are prob as good or better then anyone if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Still nitpicking.
What did he say that he didn't believe that night?

His beliefs obviously changed between then and last summer, and he learned from the backlash to take the much more modest approach.

There is a reason the clip is edited down to that.
Play the whole thing including the question asked and its interpreted totally different.

It's arrogance no matter how you slice it. This is the same guy who made a TV show out of his free agency, believes his friends should be right behind the bench, takes escorts from off-duty police officers, and calls himself the King. I don't know where you see the modesty, instead of saying that he did not perform well enough to win he went on and on about injuries being the reason why the Cavs lost.

Guess what? a "King" doesn't go 2-4 in the Finals. His consistent arrogant actions are the reason why his record in the Finals should matter. It should matter to him more than the fans who say that his losses mean nothing, but I bet he makes the same excuses his fans do.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

It's arrogance no matter how you slice it. This is the same guy who made a TV show out of his free agency, believes his friends should be right behind the bench, takes escorts from off-duty police officers, and calls himself the King. I don't know where you see the modesty, instead of saying that he did not perform well enough to win he went on and on about injuries being the reason why the Cavs lost.

Guess what? a "King" doesn't go 2-4 in the Finals.

Huh?
I know he's an arrogant prick.
I can't stand him.

But, to correct you again:

1. He never promised anything as far as Heat championships.
He said he came here because he thought he could compete for them every year, which he did.
After 4 years, he decided to leave. He was a FA. He's allowed to.

2. The Decision made him, as well as a kids charity millions. I'm still waiting for the first person to decline that reward for sitting in a chair for 90 minutes.

3. His friends had 4 Courtside seats, for 4 years. The seats right behind the bench aren't that good cause you can't see over the players.

4. ESPN named him the King.

5. He got the police escort because he was recognized and word got around. It was becoming a traffic nightmare, and without the escort there were probably thousands of people who would have been stuck in traffic forcing them to miss whatever portion of the show.

6. We all saw the Warriors series. James NEVER said they would have won, but correctly pointed out that they would have had a better chance to win.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Huh?
I know he's an arrogant prick.
I can't stand him.

But, to correct you again:

1. He never promised anything as far as Heat championships.
He said he came here because he thought he could compete for them every year, which he did.
After 4 years, he decided to leave. He was a FA. He's allowed to.

2. The Decision made him, as well as a kids charity millions. I'm still waiting for the first person to decline that reward for sitting in a chair for 90 minutes.

3. His friends had 4 Courtside seats, for 4 years. The seats right behind the bench aren't that good cause you can't see over the players.

4. ESPN named him the King.

5. He got the police escort because he was recognized and word got around. It was becoming a traffic nightmare, and without the escort there were probably thousands of people who would have been stuck in traffic forcing them to miss whatever portion of the show.

6. We all saw the Warriors series. James NEVER said they would have won, but correctly pointed out that they would have had a better chance to win.

1. Why not just say that then? Instead of saying they plan to compete for 8 championships. I have said this in the past, that statement was a slap in the face to all teams in the league. Basically saying "ya'll can't stop us". Arrogance.

2. Why doesn't it happen every year then? Oh yeah, because players don't fiend for the spotlight as much as him.

3. Okay.

4. And he got a tattoo that says it. The Clippers hated the moniker lob city, if he were truly modest then he would have hated that nickname too.

5. Okay.

6. You could always say "I won't make excuses, we simply didn't play well enough to win". James and his fans can't seem to do that.

I appreciate you trying to "correct" me but there's nothing that needs to be corrected. You're simply making excuses for the guy. You agree that he is an arrogant prick, so I shouldn't hold his Finals losses against him because? Or are you just defending his time with the Heat for absolutely no reason?