tOfficial 2015 NBA Draft/Free Agency Thread

[trojanfan12]

I've never just isolated a debate to Finals record, because then there is no debate.
Numbers speak for themselves.

I understand that the Finals is the biggest stage, and the most remembered, but I just can't hold any Finals loss against James other than Dallas because he clearly wasn't on the better team when the games were actually being played.

I can. I do the same with Kareem and Magic. In the finals vs. Detroit, Byron was out for the whole series and Magic was out in game 1 and missed the rest of the series. Still gets held against both him and Kareem. Magic's Lakers team that lost to MJ's Bulls in the finals for MJ's first title, wasn't even the best team in their own division. Still counts against him. If memory serves, there were injury issues with the Lakers team that lost to the 76ers earlier in the Showtime era. Still gets held against Magic and Kareem.

 

[trojanfan12]

Perfect. Not a single mention of LeBron anywhere. Like I said.

Bullshit. That's not what the question was. You were claiming that I had implied something re: finals winning percentages that I hadn't, You said you didn't. Now you just want to flat out lie.

 

[LAD]

I guess I'm not sure what it is, but I'm pretty clear where everyone stands on the multiple topic(s).

Fair enough.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I can. I do the same with Kareem and Magic. In the finals vs. Detroit, Byron was out for the whole series and Magic was out in game 1 and missed the rest of the series. Still gets held against both him and Kareem. Magic's Lakers team that lost to MJ's Bulls in the finals for MJ's first title, wasn't even the best team in their own division. Still counts against him. If memory serves, there were injury issues with the Lakers team that lost to the 76ers earlier in the Showtime era. Still gets held against Magic and Kareem.

I don't disagree with this, but I said that I don't hold it against him or any of the others.

I can't nor don't want to speak for others as to why they have their own opinions.

 

[trojanfan12]

I guess I'm not sure what it is, but I'm pretty clear where everyone stands on the multiple topic(s).

The whole discussion got started when shane was trying to say that 2 of Lebron's finals losses shouldn't count against him (paraphrasing) when compared to the other greats. I expanded on a post that I think you made where winning percentages were included. Gordon lost his shit because he thought it was attempt to make Lebron look worse and it devolved into this shit show from there.

 

[gordontrue]

Bullshit. That's not what the question was. You were claiming that I had implied something re: finals winning percentages that I hadn't, You said you didn't. Now you just want to flat out lie.

Chill out dude.

You said this...

Pretty much exactly what you did when you talked about how I was using the winning percentage just to drag Lebron down. So yeah, you're desperate.

I responded with...

Can you please provide me a quote. I never said anything remotely close to that.

I never said anything about trying to "drag LeBron down". I didn't even mention LeBron, as you proved.


Yes... I did say that the implicit message in comparing Finals records was illogical. That has been my entire point this whole time.

 

[gordontrue]

The whole discussion got started when shane was trying to say that 2 of Lebron's finals losses shouldn't count against him (paraphrasing) when compared to the other greats. I expanded on a post that I think you made where winning percentages were included. Gordon lost his shit because he thought it was attempt to make Lebron look worse and it devolved into this shit show from there.

That last sentence is definitely wrong in every way imaginable. Anyone with an elementary reading comprehension can browse the last few pages and see that for themselves.

 

[Shanemansj13]

The whole discussion got started when shane was trying to say that 2 of Lebron's finals losses shouldn't count against him (paraphrasing) when compared to the other greats. I expanded on a post that I think you made where winning percentages were included. Gordon lost his shit because he thought it was attempt to make Lebron look worse and it devolved into this shit show from there.

This conversation has been going on for awhile. It could have been started by Wiggy or this comment below might have fueled it. I wouldnt have brought it up if everyone else wasnt so obsessed with pointing it out.

Here's some stats for Wiggy.
Cavs title history 0-45. 0%
James Titles 2-12 17%
James winning in Finals 2-6 33%
As great as James is, many can and will argue that much of this run has come during a time when winning the EC was not that difficult and that losing 4 of 6 Finals (so far) weighs heavily against him when comparing to others.

And yet you guys keep adding to a simple discussion and making it worse. Dont follow the steps of Wiggy lol

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't disagree with this, but I said that I don't hold it against him or any of the others.

I can't nor don't want to speak for others as to why they have their own opinions.

Count against, is probably a little harsh. I just look at it as doesn't count in favor. I wouldn't, for example, claim that Kareem was GOAT because he made the finals more times than MJ and has just as many rings, regardless of why his team lost. A loss is a loss and MJ being 6-0 in the finals trumps Kareem being 6-3. Imo, Kareem doesn't get extra credit because he made it 3 more times.

I don't consider regular season/playoff losses/whether or not they were favored, because there are far too many variables/obstacles in getting there. The all time greats regular season and post season accomplishments are all so similar that there has to be some way to separate them and finals seems to be the way they themselves choose to do it. Who am I to argue with them?

 

[trojanfan12]

Chill out dude.

You said this...



I responded with...



I never said anything about trying to "drag LeBron down". I didn't even mention LeBron, as you proved.


Yes... I did say that the implicit message in comparing Finals records was illogical. That has been my entire point this whole time.

So now you want to pretend that the discussion wasn't about Lebron even though it was. Nice try.

 

[LAD]

. Gordon lost his shit because he thought it was attempt to make Lebron look worse and it devolved into this shit show from there.

No offense Gordon but that line is funny.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Its also strange why so many others don't want to include losses in earlier rounds in those same discussions.

Bc apparently it doesnt matter. Losing in the Finals is the worst thing imaginable lol. He should have just lost in the 1st couple rounds and legacy would be better 2-0 in Finals. Wow.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Sorry, but Kevin Love while he was with the T-wolves was not better than:

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dwight Howard
4. Chris Paul
5. Russel Westbrook
6. Carmelo Anthony

Not sure how anyone could say Kevin Love is a top 5 player. Considering his defense is basic shit. Hell, I'd take a 39-year old Tim Duncan (for 1 year) over Kevin Love.

At that time in point, he could have been in the discussion to be on that list. And yes, many people thought this same thing 2 years ago.

 

[LAD]

Bc apparently it doesnt matter. Losing in the Finals is the worst thing imaginable lol. He should have just lost in the 1st couple rounds and legacy would be better 2-0 in Finals. Wow.

Well now lets see....Most people who understand the professional level of competition might say that if you've made it to the Finals that's being on the cusp of becoming a champion. Now, losing in the first-third rounds not so much.

 

[gordontrue]

At that time in point, he could have been in the discussion to be on that list. And yes, many people thought this same thing 2 years ago.

In 2012, when ESPN did the big top-500 NBA rankings... Love came in at 7... not far off. He was the only PF in the top 10.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

At that time in point, he could have been in the discussion to be on that list. And yes, many people thought this same thing 2 years ago.

That's crazy talk.
His career was nothing but putting up big, meaningless stats on garbage teams.

 

[gordontrue]

That's crazy talk.
His career was nothing but putting up big, meaningless stats on garbage teams.

My opinion of Love changed when I saw him play in person. It was a few years ago vs the Suns in a game no one really cared about.

He played phenomenally in that game and carried the Wolves to a close win. That performance - along with a Ray Allen performance in a Sonics-Kings playoff game - are some of the best individual performances I've ever seen in person.

I think its easier to discount a good player on a bad team when they're just a few highlights and a box score to you (which they usually are since their games aren't often televised).

 

[OutlawImmortal]

This is why his Finals record matters. "When I say that I really believe it".

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Count against, is probably a little harsh. I just look at it as doesn't count in favor. I wouldn't, for example, claim that Kareem was GOAT because he made the finals more times than MJ and has just as many rings, regardless of why his team lost. A loss is a loss and MJ being 6-0 in the finals trumps Kareem being 6-3. Imo, Kareem doesn't get extra credit because he made it 3 more times.

I don't consider regular season/playoff losses/whether or not they were favored, because there are far too many variables/obstacles in getting there. The all time greats regular season and post season accomplishments are all so similar that there has to be some way to separate them and finals seems to be the way they themselves choose to do it. Who am I to argue with them?

That's a very logical argument, but so is the other side that says if a player is so good that he gets a team to overachieve to even be in the Finals before losing to a much better team, how is that a negative?

 

[LAD]

That's a very logical argument, but so is the other side that says if a player is so good that he gets a team to overachieve to even be in the Finals before losing to a much better team, how is that a negative?

Probably because it's a loss no matter how you shuffle the contents. If he competes, win or lose, it's forever a part of his record.