This is when it's easy to tell Jordan >>>>>> Lebron

[BoiseMike19]

Lebron has 3 seasons where his Win Shares were above 18. Bird didn't have a single season where his win shares were above 16.

Have you ever played a sport on a team? The guy was surrounded by 3 Hall of Famers who would call you an idiot. Ya, they share your opinion, with the exception of claiming he made them better than they would have been on ANY other team. You obviously follow and don't lead.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Have you ever played a sport on a team? The guy was surrounded by 3 Hall of Famers who would call you an idiot. Ya, they share your opinion, with the exception of claiming he made them better than they would have been on ANY other team. You obviously follow and don't lead.

Lebron had 3 potential Hall of Famers as well. His win shares were above 14.5 every year and 19 was his highest. Not comparing Bird to James, but yeah he had great players too.

 

[purguy12]

After these last 2 games I think LBj shouldn't even be in the same sentence as MJ. LBj has struggled big time late in games. He has missed 4 game winners and has shot 2-28(might be a little off, forgot the stat they showed) in this series in the 1st 2 games late in games(under 3:30 min) and one of those makes was when the game was over in OT and GS gave LBJ the lay up.

Last night he Finished missing 17 of 20 shots. Ouch

 

[hockey878]

yea, MJ never had an off game in the finals!

 

[hockey878]

Just to be sure, the reason LeBron CANT be compared to MJ is because with a POS team in the finals he is ONLY averaging 41.5 12 and 8.5?

 

[hockey878]

I mean C'mon. I think MJ is the absolute greatest. But this is series is not evidence to support that claim, at least not right now

 

[mysticO]

For the Y2K generation.....

Jordan > Lebron in PER (even if we include Jordan's Wizards years when he was 38-40 yrs old)
**Please note that Lebron's PER is projected to decrease as he ages

Jordan > Lebron in defense.
*Jordan 9 1st team defense in 13 seasons. Lebron in 5 1st team defense in 12 seasons.
*Jordan has a DPOY award. Lebron has 0.
*Jordan led the league in steals for 3 seasons. Lebron led the league in steals for 0 seasons.

Jordan > Lebron in offense.
*Jordan is 10 time NBA scoring leader in 13 seasons (excluding Wizards years). Lebron is 1 time NBA scoring leader (in 12 seasons).

Some other notes: If we exclude the Wizards years, did you know Jordan only really had 11 full seasons rather than 13? In his 2nd season, he only had 18 games due to foot injury. In the 94/95 season he only had 17 regular games due to his retirement?
LET THAT SINK IN...HE GOT ALL THOSE REGULAR SEASON ACCOLADES WITH TECHNICALLY 1 SEASON LESS THAN LEBRON


Thats just the regular season. For the post-season, it's not even close.

In 13 seasons (if we exclude the Wizards years)
Jordan 6* Rings
Jordan 6* finals MVP
jordan 6* finals

In 12 seasons (* possibly change to 3 depending on current finals series)
Lebron 2* Rings
Lebron 2* finals MVP
Lebron 6 finals

SO TELL ME, WHY SHOULD I PUT LEBRON IN THE SAME LEVEL AS JORDAN LET ALONE AHEAD?.

For kids that has not seen Jordan play...heres a good youtube clip of all his 50+ points. You can see his domination. Unfortunately, these aren't in HD and you will notice back then, they wore tight, really tight shorts especially early in his career.

 

[Shanemansj13]

But you fail to mention assists and rebounds. Isnt that convenient.

 

[mysticO]

But you fail to mention assists and rebounds. Isnt that convenient.

Did you notice i put the accolades, not the stats. Did Lebron ever lead the league in rebounds or assists?

When measuring greatness...i'm not going to say, this person had 2 rebounds more per game than this person...that is just stupid. It depends on his role in the team.
When Jordan played point guard for the Bulls, he averaged 33pts 8rebounds 8assists for the whole season.
Let me repeat...33pts 8rebouts 8assists for a season....he had 11 triple doubles in a row! LET THAT SINK IN.
Stats is meaningless in this context.

The PER is there, that takes into account the overall positive impact and minus the negative impact. So all there
points, assists, rebounds, steals etc.. are into that calculation. You do understand what a PER is right?

When measuring greatness, you measure regular/post season accolades and dominance. And you can see Jordan >> Lebron

 

[trojanfan12]

Did you notice i put the accolades, not the stats. Did Lebron ever lead the league in rebounds or assists?

When measuring greatness...i'm not going to say, this person had 2 rebounds more per game than this person...that is just stupid. It depends on his role in the team.
When Jordan played point guard for the Bulls, he averaged 33pts 8rebounds 8assists for the whole season.
Let me repeat...33pts 8rebouts 8assists for a season....he had 11 triple doubles in a row! LET THAT SINK IN.
Stats is meaningless in this context.

The PER is there, that takes into account the overall positive impact and minus the negative impact. So all there
points, assists, rebounds, steals etc.. are into that calculation. You do understand what a PER is right?

When measuring greatness, you measure regular/post season accolades and dominance. And you can see Jordan >> Lebron

Damn you sir!! Using facts when discussing Lebron with Lebroniacs. Do you know how unfair that is?

What's next for you? Pulling wings off of flies? Killing ants with a magnifying glass?

 

[mysticO]

Damn you sir!! Using facts when discussing Lebron with Lebroniacs. Do you know how unfair that is?

What's next for you? Pulling wings off of flies? Killing ants with a magnifying glass?

You're right. sometimes, i just need to pull out the facts stick to put them back in there place

 

[hockey878]

Damn you sir!! Using facts when discussing Lebron with Lebroniacs. Do you know how unfair that is?

What's next for you? Pulling wings off of flies? Killing ants with a magnifying glass?

there are also plenty of facts that would suggest LeBron is better. Its not as clear cut as people like to make it, but yes, I do think Jordan is the best ever. And likely will be for a long time, unless LeBron has some storybook ending to his career here. And it'd have to be epic, and start this year.

 

[mysticO]

there are also plenty of facts that would suggest LeBron is better. Its not as clear cut as people like to make it, but yes, I do think Jordan is the best ever. And likely will be for a long time, unless LeBron has some storybook ending to his career here. And it'd have to be epic, and start this year.

I'm curious...what are these facts? The usual reasoning i keep hearing is... his bigger and stronger than Jordan? Are we really going to measure greatness by there physical attributes rather than result?

He took lesser teams to the finals? This maybe true, but he has also played in the historically weak Eastern conference. Jordan played in the historically strong Eastern conference. This would hold more weight if Lebron actually won the finals. The 2 rings he has, he had prime Wade (3rd All Time SG), Bosh (Future Hall of Famer) and both were on the USA team during those 2 rings.

Other I hear is that by the time Lebron was 30 he has been in 6 finals and Jordan only 3 finals. But they leave out that when Jordan was 30...he has only been in the league for 9 years (8 years if you exclude the season he was injured) while Lebron has been in the league for 12 years.

Why do some people want to make it so easy for Lebron to be the GOAT? It seems so biased...because the true measure has Jordan >> Lebron. All I hear is excuses for Lebron.

For Lebron to make the GOAT conversation....at least give me this....he has to win 6 rings...and get 6 finals mvp.

At least you can argue that his post season domination/accolade matches Jordan.

 

[gordontrue]

For the Y2K generation.....

Jordan > Lebron in PER (even if we include Jordan's Wizards years when he was 38-40 yrs old)
**Please note that Lebron's PER is projected to decrease as he ages

Jordan > Lebron in defense.
*Jordan 9 1st team defense in 13 seasons. Lebron in 5 1st team defense in 12 seasons.
*Jordan has a DPOY award. Lebron has 0.
*Jordan led the league in steals for 3 seasons. Lebron led the league in steals for 0 seasons.

Jordan > Lebron in offense.
*Jordan is 10 time NBA scoring leader in 13 seasons (excluding Wizards years). Lebron is 1 time NBA scoring leader (in 12 seasons).

Some other notes: If we exclude the Wizards years, did you know Jordan only really had 11 full seasons rather than 13? In his 2nd season, he only had 18 games due to foot injury. In the 94/95 season he only had 17 regular games due to his retirement?
LET THAT SINK IN...HE GOT ALL THOSE REGULAR SEASON ACCOLADES WITH TECHNICALLY 1 SEASON LESS THAN LEBRON


Thats just the regular season. For the post-season, it's not even close.

In 13 seasons (if we exclude the Wizards years)
Jordan 6* Rings
Jordan 6* finals MVP
jordan 6* finals

In 12 seasons (* possibly change to 3 depending on current finals series)
Lebron 2* Rings
Lebron 2* finals MVP
Lebron 6 finals

SO TELL ME, WHY SHOULD I PUT LEBRON IN THE SAME LEVEL AS JORDAN LET ALONE AHEAD?.

For kids that has not seen Jordan play...heres a good youtube clip of all his 50+ points. You can see his domination. Unfortunately, these aren't in HD and you will notice back then, they wore tight, really tight shorts especially early in his career.

Let me start by saying that, imo, Jordan is the current GOAT and LeBron has plenty to accomplish to challenge that. I am not saying LeBron's resume is equal to Jordan's.

I hesitate to even get into this conversation because all I care about right now is the Finals, particularly Game 3, and because LeBron's career is far from over.

You present some good stuff, but I think there are some relevant counter points.

1) PER isn't a huge win for Jordan, IMO. His career PER is a tenth better than LeBron's. Both have 4 seasons with a PER > 30. Jordan gets the edge, but I don't see it as a great Jordan over LeBron argument.

2) Defense. Again, I don't see this as a huge win for Jordan. In terms of his position, I think Jordan was the better defender. But LeBron brings a versatility to his defense that Jordan couldn't. LeBron's Career defensive rating is slightly better than Jordan's. (Lebron's is 102, Jordan's is 103)

3) Scoring Leader. Well, of course. Jordan is the best scorer of all time. LeBron has never been a scorer. Both are great facilitators... but LeBron facilitates more. Its just two different styles of play. In his career, Jordan assisted on about 25% of his teammates FG. Lebron, on the other hand, has assisted on almost 40% of his teammates FG.


The crazy thing is that if the Cavs win the Finals this seasons... LeBron's first 10 postseasons will be more successful than Jordan's first 10. LeBron would have 3 titles and 6 Finals appearances in 10 appearances. Jordan had 3 titles in 3 Finals appearances in his first 10.

Of course, that stat is a bit deceiving because Jordan made the playoffs in his first two years, when the Bulls were very bad and below .500, while LeBron didn't get there until his 3rd year.


In terms of the the weakness of the Eastern conference... it was definitely stronger in Jordan's day... but its often overstated, IMO:

In Jordan's 6 Finals runs... his Eastern Conference Playoff opponents had an average reg season winning percentage of 60.8%.

In LeBron's 6 Finals runs... his Eastern Conference Playoff opponents had an average reg season winning percentage of 58.6%.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Did you notice i put the accolades, not the stats. Did Lebron ever lead the league in rebounds or assists?

When measuring greatness...i'm not going to say, this person had 2 rebounds more per game than this person...that is just stupid. It depends on his role in the team.
When Jordan played point guard for the Bulls, he averaged 33pts 8rebounds 8assists for the whole season.
Let me repeat...33pts 8rebouts 8assists for a season....he had 11 triple doubles in a row! LET THAT SINK IN.
Stats is meaningless in this context.

The PER is there, that takes into account the overall positive impact and minus the negative impact. So all there
points, assists, rebounds, steals etc.. are into that calculation. You do understand what a PER is right?

When measuring greatness, you measure regular/post season accolades and dominance. And you can see Jordan >> Lebron

That may be, but remember MJ had a whole college career to prepare him for the NBA. Lebron came straight to the NBA from HS like Kobe. So really comparing the first 4 years, MJ was more mature already. The best thing to compare these players, who play different positions, is to wait till their careers are over and done.
MJ is by far greater right now, but as an overall player, the accolades and scoring is the only thing that separates them remotely.

 

[mysticO]

Let me start by saying that, imo, Jordan is the current GOAT and LeBron has plenty to accomplish to challenge that. I am not saying LeBron's resume is equal to Jordan's.

I hesitate to even get into this conversation because all I care about right now is the Finals, particularly Game 3, and because LeBron's career is far from over.

You present some good stuff, but I think there are some relevant counter points.

1) PER isn't a huge win for Jordan, IMO. His career PER is a tenth better than LeBron's. Both have 4 seasons with a PER > 30. Jordan gets the edge, but I don't see it as a great Jordan over LeBron argument.

2) Defense. Again, I don't see this as a huge win for Jordan. In terms of his position, I think Jordan was the better defender. But LeBron brings a versatility to his defense that Jordan couldn't. LeBron's Career defensive rating is slightly better than Jordan's. (Lebron's is 102, Jordan's is 103)

3) Scoring Leader. Well, of course. Jordan is the best scorer of all time. LeBron has never been a scorer. Both are great facilitators... but LeBron facilitates more. Its just two different styles of play. In his career, Jordan assisted on about 25% of his teammates FG. Lebron, on the other hand, has assisted on almost 40% of his teammates FG.


The crazy thing is that if the Cavs win the Finals this seasons... LeBron's first 10 postseasons will be more successful than Jordan's first 10. LeBron would have 3 titles and 6 Finals appearances in 10 appearances. Jordan had 3 titles in 3 Finals appearances in his first 10.

Of course, that stat is a bit deceiving because Jordan made the playoffs in his first two years, when the Bulls were very bad and below .500, while LeBron didn't get there until his 3rd year.


In terms of the the weakness of the Eastern conference... it was definitely stronger in Jordan's day... but its often overstated, IMO:

In Jordan's 6 Finals runs... his Eastern Conference Playoff opponents had an average reg season winning percentage of 60.8%.

In LeBron's 6 Finals runs... his Eastern Conference Playoff opponents had an average reg season winning percentage of 58.6%.

I have no problem with you're counters. At least your unbiased in your assesment.

Lebron is one of the most dominant players to have played, i agree, and you make valid points to show Lebron's regular season dominance although is below Jordan is not that far behind Jordan (although at this point of his career, Lebron is either at his pinnacle or just a bit past his prime...and all his PER, defensive rating i.e. is projected to drop, just like Shaq when he was at the same stage of his career).

My frustration comes from fans that like to crown players the "GOAT" title when the measure is not there

 

[Shanemansj13]

MJ is the "GOAT" until proved otherwise, I hope everyone knows that.

 

[Clayton]

Have you ever played a sport on a team? The guy was surrounded by 3 Hall of Famers who would call you an idiot. Ya, they share your opinion, with the exception of claiming he made them better than they would have been on ANY other team. You obviously follow and don't lead.

Yes, Ive played sports on a team. Im also old enough to have seen Bird and MJ play. Anyone putting Bird in a class above Lebron is simply putting a hero from their childhood above a great modern player.

Lebron would have to win this series for a Lebron/MJ comparison to even begin and probably needs at least 2 more rings.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes, Ive played sports on a team. Im also old enough to have seen Bird and MJ play. Anyone putting Bird in a class above Lebron is simply putting a hero from their childhood above a great modern player.

Lebron would have to win this series for a Lebron/MJ comparison to even begin and probably needs at least 2 more rings.

If he gets a ring this year, he'll tie Bird at 3. He still has a ways to go before he catches up to Magic and Kobe's 5 or MJ and Kareem's 6.

 

[SJ76]

Aaahhhhhh geeeeeeeeez

Just go look at the tape. Look how Jordan stole the ball from the Mailmam on the baseline then went down and hit a game/finals winner.

6 for 6 and hit .230 for 2 years with the Barons of Birmingham. No one was more clutch than MJ. Never will be another like him either.



This shouldn't even be a discussion. Lebron reminds me of Pippen at his peak, but more of a scorer. Lebron is impressive and a great athlete, but he really takes bad shots at huge moments. Like he wants to play Hero or something. Bron has stopped his flopping for now and he's playing pretty tough,but....

Jordan?? Really

Somebody throw up the pic when MJ shrugged his shoulders after he puts 30 on Portland in the 1st half. Please