Theo Epstein > Brian Cashman

[DirtDirtDirt]

We'll see which is better.

There's no doubt that what Epstein has done with the Red Sox and Cubs is impressive and I do think he's one of the brightest GMs in baseball and maybe the best.

However, in the eighteen years from '95-'12, the Yankees won their division 13 times, the AL pennant 7 times and a championship 5 times. That's damn impressive too, regardless of what they were spending.

The front office game has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years in baseball. I believe we've seen Cashman make some adjustments to his strategy, and interested to see if those adjustments payoff. I think he's an extremely talented baseball exec.

Right now, I'm thinking that the Cubs and Yankees are going to be the teams to beat in their respective leagues for the next five years or so.

This guy knows baseball

 

[cerealboi]

This guy knows baseball

Maybe about the Cubs. I've seen no indication other than a roided up catcher to lead me to believe the Yankees are going to be a team to beat.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Maybe about the Cubs. I've seen no indication other than a roided up catcher to lead me to believe the Yankees are going to be a team to beat.

Now Now, just because the Red Sox highly ranked farm system has produced nothing but last place finishes and one embarrassing postseason appearance, doesn't mean the Yankees highly touted system will travel the same path

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Right and I think that before this Cubs WS, the Theo vs. Cashman argument was close and slightly in Cashman's favor. But the Cubs were a tire fire when he took over. The Arrieta and Strop trade for Clevinger and Feldman didn't looks so lopsided when it was done now looks like highway robbery.

On the other hand you have Cashman having to pay aging stars to go away because he stupidly gave them 10 year deals.

He didn't give Arod the 10 year deal, he was very publicly overruled on that decision

 

[The Q]

He didn't give Arod the 10 year deal, he was very publicly overruled on that decision

That's part 2 of evaluating GMs.

Sometimes the owner overrules them.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

That's part 2 of evaluating GMs.

Sometimes the owner overrules them.

It was well publicized that when Arod opted out during the World Series that season, Cashman publicly stated they would "Move on from Arod", than, because this was pre-steroids, Hank Steinbrenner, in his only ever move as Yankee owner, saw many $$$$$ signs as Arod shattered all these records as a "Clean" player, and gave him that contract and all those performance bonus'

 

[StanMarsh51]

On the other hand you have Cashman having to pay aging stars to go away because he stupidly gave them 10 year deals.

Except you can't blame Cashman for that...it's well known that signing A-Rod was the doing of Hank Steinbrenner (who was pretty much exiled from baseball related decisions not too long after that), and Cashman didn't want to negotiate a new deal if A-Rod opted out.

The worst sports contract ever - CNN.com

To quote Newsday at the time: "(Hank Steinbrenner) wanted Rodriguez back so badly that he not only reversed a very loud and public proclamation, he wound up bidding against no one but himself in his mad rush to secure A-Rod's services."


Hitched to an Aging Star: Anatomy of a Deal, and Doubts

As far back as spring training, Cashman had repeatedly said that if Rodriguez opted out, the Yankees would not negotiate to lure him back.

 

[cerealboi]

So what I'm reading is Cashman gets all the credit when deals work out, but none of the blame when they go south. That's all on ownership?

Well if you want to play it that way, since Arod carried the Yankees on his back for the 2009 post season, and Cashman never wanted to re-sign him, I guess we can't credit Cashman for that championship.


If you're counting at home, that makes it

Theo 3 (with two teams)
Cashman 3

 

[StanMarsh51]

So what I'm reading is Cashman gets all the credit when deals work out, but none of the blame when they go south. That's all on ownership?

Well if you want to play it that way, since Arod carried the Yankees on his back for the 2009 post season, and Cashman never wanted to re-sign him, I guess we can't credit Cashman for that championship.


If you're counting at home, that makes it

Theo 3 (with two teams)
Cashman 3

Maybe, maybe not...so you can't presume one way or the other. Who knows where Cashman could've spent the $30M that went to A-Rod that year. Maybe he goes out and gets the Yankees a quality #4 starter, which would've eliminated the need for a 3 man rotation the entire playoffs (and hence not needed to start AJ Burnett on 3 days rest where he stunk), and might've erased the need for A-Rod's postseason that year.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Now Now, just because the Red Sox highly ranked farm system has produced nothing but last place finishes and one embarrassing postseason appearance, doesn't mean the Yankees highly touted system will travel the same path

I thought the Red Sox postseason appearance was fucking awesome.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Cashman's contract is up after 2017. I hope he re-signs with them because I look forward to him eating that dipshit, Dombrowski's, lunch for years to come.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

So according to the braintrust on this board, Theo shouldn't get total credit for the 2004 Sox because the Sox were pretty good when Theo took over?

Doesn't that apply to Cashman? Yankees had won 96 games the year before he took over and the world series the year before that. "what a remarkable job he's done"

I don't think I've seen anyone on here saying that Cashman is the better GM. In fact, I think I'm the only one that openly disagreed with OP, and my only point is that they've both done some impressive shit and neither is done, so I'm not ready to give either the crown.

I will say that if you gave me my choice between the two right now, I'd take Epstein, but that doesn't mean that when it's all said and done that I'll think he's had the better career.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Maybe about the Cubs. I've seen no indication other than a roided up catcher to lead me to believe the Yankees are going to be a team to beat.

You make a good point. For 5+ years in the late aughts, the Indians were consistently ranked to have a top farm system and that only netted them one playoff berth, so it does remain to be seen.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Cashman's contract is up after 2017. I hope he re-signs with them because I look forward to him eating that dipshit, Dombrowski's, lunch for years to come.

Im loving every minute of Dave Dombrowski, stay right where you are Dave

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Im loving every minute of Dave Dombrowski, stay right where you are Dave

As an Indians fan, I was sad to see him leave Detroit, but if he had to go, I suppose Boston's as good a spot as any.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

That's part 2 of evaluating GMs.

Sometimes the owner overrules them.

I think that's a real good point. Particularly with Yankees' ownership.

 

[cerealboi]

Im loving every minute of Dave Dombrowski, stay right where you are Dave

You loved watching the Sox make the playoffs and the Yankees not?

To each his own.

 

[cerealboi]

As an Indians fan, I was sad to see him leave Detroit, but if he had to go, I suppose Boston's as good a spot as any.

I'm not a big fan of Dumbo so far, but he did get the Tigers to the playoffs - what 4 years in a row?


He also pulled off the biggest heist in MLB trade history by swiping Miggy from the Marlins.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I'm not a big fan of Dumbo so far, but he did get the Tigers to the playoffs - what 4 years in a row?

That's the main part of why he's overrated.

The AL Central was an historically weak division during those years. DD significantly outspent his divisional rivals and still usually only one the division by a game or two.

IMO, he's a prime example of what OP is accusing Cashman of. And, with Shapiro replacing that babbling gyro folder up in Toronto, that division won't be getting easier any time soon.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

He also pulled off the biggest heist in MLB trade history by swiping Miggy from the Marlins.

You ever heard of Babe Ruth?