The ten worst moves of the offseason

[shopson67]

It's a pretty good list. Chase Daniel is the #2 QB for Philly, Wentz is currently #3 and I think he redshirts as a rookie. But still, good list.

Odd that they don't like Daniel at $7M per (who knows Pederson's system and can help teach Wentz), but don't mention whiny Bradford at $18M per.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

This is again where I come back to the Broncos tried to prepare for the future with Brock Osweiler. Unfortunately he just didn't quite live up to what they were hoping he would become. Then you throw in the contract that he signed with Houston and you just think this guy is not worth that kind of money with so little experience and honestly average at best play when he did get experience.

Also I don't think the Broncos mortgaged the future with their contracts. Money was tight this year but they have the most cap space of any team in the league next year plus something like 10 more draft picks with 5 of those being in the top-100 picks next year.

They began mortgaging the future 3 years ago thru this year. It wasn't a one year thing. That's why they are in cap hell this year. Yes depending on FA new contracts next year Denver is in a very good place. But will likely still be looking for a QB they will need to pay. If you want a mid to top tier QB you need to pay. Denver weighed those odds and decided not to pay. 18 million come 2020 will be nothing even for a mid tier QB if the cap continues to rise.

I think you mentioned NE and Mallett as a comparison. Actually it's not. Grappalo had already surpassed Mallet on the depth chart. NE got a 6th or 7th round pick for him him. Then NE drafted Brissett with their 3rd pick this year. A high pick IMHO considering they didn't have a 1st. They look past the immediate future. If Jimmy G doesn't work out they have Brissett in the wings 3-4 years from now. He'll be on the cheap because barring injuries he'll be holding a clipboard until then. He won't command big $ because he'll have less than 7 games as a starter.

 

[Broncos6482]

They began mortgaging the future 3 years ago thru this year. It wasn't a one year thing. That's why they are in cap hell this year.

Denver isn't really in cap hell. They are tight against the cap, but they have a little wiggle room still. According to spotrac they've got a little over $6 million in cap space, ahead of the Steelers, Jets, Saints, Chiefs, and Cardinals.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

This is again where I come back to the Broncos tried to prepare for the future with Brock Osweiler. Unfortunately he just didn't quite live up to what they were hoping he would become. Then you throw in the contract that he signed with Houston and you just think this guy is not worth that kind of money with so little experience and honestly average at best play when he did get experience.

Well the Brock is a null situation since Denver couldn't have afforded him. They obviously made the push to pay him the most they could under their cap situation (without releasing Von), so you can see where their interests were.

As for his play. I think people get caught up a bit too much in who plays well (Flynn) or doesn't (Rodgers) in limited time. That offense they were running was re-tooled for Peyton, and he was getting no snaps with the starting unit in before he was out there. He had some pretty solid games, some pretty impressive finishes and looked quite consistent (never had one of those bad games most QB's tend to have here and there).

I mean sure he didn't answer EVERYTHING right off the bat, but 88 QB rating his first 7 starts.. That's something guys like Cam and Russell Wilson and Luck and plenty of others wish they could have.

 

[Broncos6482]

Well the Brock is a null situation since Denver couldn't have afforded him. They obviously made the push to pay him the most they could under their cap situation (without releasing Von), so you can see where their interests were.

As for his play. I think people get caught up a bit too much in who plays well (Flynn) or doesn't (Rodgers) in limited time. That offense they were running was re-tooled for Peyton, and he was getting no snaps with the starting unit in before he was out there. He had some pretty solid games, some pretty impressive finishes and looked quite consistent (never had one of those bad games most QB's tend to have here and there).

I mean sure he didn't answer EVERYTHING right off the bat, but 88 QB rating his first 7 starts.. That's something guys like Cam and Russell Wilson and Luck and plenty of others wish they could have.

If they really, really wanted to keep him, they could have come up with a way to do it. They could have worked out an extension before last season. They could have signed him to an extension after the season before he hit free agency. They could have gotten creative with the contract and pushed the big cap hit into 2017 when they have the most space in the league.

They clearly liked him because they tried to re-sign him, but they obviously didn't love him. I think they underestimated what the market would pay him, and that was clearly higher than they were willing to go.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Denver isn't really in cap hell. They are tight against the cap, but they have a little wiggle room still. According to spotrac they've got a little over $6 million in cap space, ahead of the Steelers, Jets, Saints, Chiefs, and Cardinals.

Cap hell, almost cap hell, tight against the cap call it what you want. It has kept them from being competitive in FA.
Have they signed all their draft players yet I haven't been followin? PS yet? Plus the 3-4 million most teams bank for later in the year? Let's be honest there is no wiggle room without restructing.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

If they really, really wanted to keep him, they could have come up with a way to do it. They could have worked out an extension before last season. They could have signed him to an extension after the season before he hit free agency. They could have gotten creative with the contract and pushed the big cap hit into 2017 when they have the most space in the league.

They clearly liked him because they tried to re-sign him, but they obviously didn't love him. I think they underestimated what the market would pay him, and that was clearly higher than they were willing to go.

Spot on that's why I said the FO missed on this among other things like paying the D like they have. Also we don't know how bad the FO pissed off Os by bringing PM back as the starter? That likely priced them out once the season ended. Otherwise I think Denver could've signed him for less than Houston?

 

[cdumler7]

They began mortgaging the future 3 years ago thru this year. It wasn't a one year thing. That's why they are in cap hell this year. Yes depending on FA new contracts next year Denver is in a very good place. But will likely still be looking for a QB they will need to pay. If you want a mid to top tier QB you need to pay. Denver weighed those odds and decided not to pay. 18 million come 2020 will be nothing even for a mid tier QB if the cap continues to rise.

I think you mentioned NE and Mallett as a comparison. Actually it's not. Grappalo had already surpassed Mallet on the depth chart. NE got a 6th or 7th round pick for him him. Then NE drafted Brissett with their 3rd pick this year. A high pick IMHO considering they didn't have a 1st. They look past the immediate future. If Jimmy G doesn't work out they have Brissett in the wings 3-4 years from now. He'll be on the cheap because barring injuries he'll be holding a clipboard until then. He won't command big $ because he'll have less than 7 games as a starter.

I guess I don't get what you mean by mortgaging the future? How have the mortgaged it? Like I said Bucky Brooks still has them as one of the top-4 rosters in the NFL. Then you add in next year with the draft capital they have and the most cap space of any team in the league I guess I'm just not seeing how they have mortgaged it.

Really the Broncos have made a habbit of letting players go that want way more than what the Broncos are willing to pay. Such as they made an offer to Malik but he wanted as much money as he could get which hey don't blame him but the Broncos don't want to find themselves in cap hell by overpaying for a player.

I would also add the Broncos do the same of drafting for the future. Most rookies do not get a ton of playing time with the Broncos. So they are drafting for the positions usually that they know they will need somebody a year or two from now.

Last year they drafted Shane Ray to eventually take over for DeMarcus Ware. 2nd round they drafted Ty Sambrailo to take over for one of the aging OL players in Clady, Mathis, or Vasquez. 3rd round they drafted Heuerman to take over for Owen Daniels this year. And the list goes on. The guys this year for the most part will be depth guys that will get some rotations like Gotsis, Booker, and Simmons who all should get some playing time but most likely won't be the starter.

QB wise maybe they should have used an earlier pick last year on a QB prospect in case they lost Manning and Osweiler. They did use a 7th round pick and from the sound of it he is actually looking the best of the 3 QB's since he knows the system. Have to see how that plays out as the off season goes on. Beyond that they used a 1st round pick on a guy they really like this year. So since they will have the QB position so controlled over the next 4-5 years they really shouldn't be in some crazy cap hell.

 

[Broncos6482]

Spot on that's why I said the FO missed on this among other things like paying the D like they have. Also we don't know how bad the FO pissed off Os by bringing PM back as the starter? That likely priced them out once the season ended. Otherwise I think Denver could've signed him for less than Houston?

They missed on paying the D? How do you figure? That D was the biggest reason that they won the Super Bowl.

I do think they misevaluated Brock and he wasn't as good as they hoped he would be. Unfortunately that happens. And reports were that once the Broncos benched him for Manning he decided he wanted out. So I don't think there really was any bringing him back at that point.

 

[cdumler7]

Well the Brock is a null situation since Denver couldn't have afforded him. They obviously made the push to pay him the most they could under their cap situation (without releasing Von), so you can see where their interests were.

As for his play. I think people get caught up a bit too much in who plays well (Flynn) or doesn't (Rodgers) in limited time. That offense they were running was re-tooled for Peyton, and he was getting no snaps with the starting unit in before he was out there. He had some pretty solid games, some pretty impressive finishes and looked quite consistent (never had one of those bad games most QB's tend to have here and there).

I mean sure he didn't answer EVERYTHING right off the bat, but 88 QB rating his first 7 starts.. That's something guys like Cam and Russell Wilson and Luck and plenty of others wish they could have.

Few things here...

1) Cam, Luck, and Wilson all had their first 7 starts as rookies. We are talking about a 4th year guy in the league. I would hope he is playing a little better than a typical rookie.

2) Osweiler was actually getting lots of practice time throughout the off season and season with the #1 unit. They made Manning take at least 1 day off a week in practice so Osweiler got plenty of reps with the 1's.

3) Broncos made a push to keep Osweiler as yes you don't want to go into the season with only a 7th round pick QB on your roster. I don't think they pushed all that hard though. I think they liked him but didn't really love him. Like I've said I think Osweiler can be a decent QB in this league. I think the Broncos though showed they don't view him as that guy that is a top-10 consistent QB for you. Honestly what they offered him was about the price of the 20th ranked QB in the league which to me is about what he looks like.

 

[Broncos6482]

Cap hell, almost cap hell, tight against the cap call it what you want. It has kept them from being competitive in FA.
Have they signed all their draft players yet I haven't been followin? PS yet? Plus the 3-4 million most teams bank for later in the year? Let's be honest there is no wiggle room without restructing.

Well you can't make a splash in free agency every single year. And Denver is still plenty talented, they managed to re-sign some of their free agents, but some (Osweiler, Jackson, Trevathan) simply priced themselves out of Denver. That happens, you can't bring back everyone.

I don't think they have signed all of their draft picks yet, not sure on that one. Regardless, I'll take a year with a tight cap when it's preceded by a Super Bowl win and followed by a year with the most cap room in the NFL. That seems to me to be smart cap management. Maybe you define it differently, but to me cap hell is several years of being over the cap and having to cut players just to get back under it (like the Saints have been in the last few seasons).

 

[cdumler7]

Cap hell, almost cap hell, tight against the cap call it what you want. It has kept them from being competitive in FA.
Have they signed all their draft players yet I haven't been followin? PS yet? Plus the 3-4 million most teams bank for later in the year? Let's be honest there is no wiggle room without restructing.

See this is where I don't think you really understand how the cap works. Over half the league has $11 million or less in cap space. Kind of how it goes. You have to spend money as the CBA demands that you spend at least 89% of the cap space you have for I think a 4-year period.

Beyond that because the Broncos have so much cap space next year contracts would be easy to write up if the Broncos really really wanted to keep certain players or go after certain players in FA. They like the roster they have though. Again others have taken notice of the talent that is still with the Broncos. 9 of the 11 starters on defense are still signed with most of them beyond even next year. Offensively they wanted to retool because the unit just does not fit what Kubiak wants to do. It is why you saw a lot of draft capital go to the offensive side of the ball this draft. I would bet that happens again next year as they continue to try and build up what Kubiak wants in the unit.

Also that figure of about $6 million from what I understand is an estimate based on all rookie contracts and PS players being signed. So should stay close to that and allows them to maybe up Von Miller's first year cap hit more than they thought so that later years are not so bad.

Also there is still plenty of wiggle room for the team. Such as good chance Colquitt is cut before the season. They used a draft pick on a punter so that gives them another $3.25 million in cap space to work with. So again not seeing how you can claim they are in cap hell when they have plenty of money for the team they have this year and even more next year to really go crazy with some contracts if they so desire. When you throw in a QB situation that is very cost controlled with 2 guys on rookie contracts and a cheap veteran they should be very good cap wise moving forward.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

They missed on paying the D? How do you figure? That D was the biggest reason that they won the Super Bowl.

I do think they misevaluated Brock and he wasn't as good as they hoped he would be. Unfortunately that happens. And reports were that once the Broncos benched him for Manning he decided he wanted out. So I don't think there really was any bringing him back at that point.

This addresses both what you and cdumbler are saying.
They paid the D just like Seattle did. Thus having to sacrafice on paying the O. (-) Manning. This appears to be a good way of managing the cap for a one year run. Both Sea and Den got a SB. So I'm not saying it's right or wrong. What I'm saying is those choices paved the way for what Denver could do outside of their drafts due to being finacially strapped. Thus they couldn't even if they had wanted to pay Os last year or the year before.
Please bring something new. We've heard a million times about who was drafted over tge past few drafts. We've heard how guys were
Hurt last year and now expected to be studs a thousand times. We know next year as of today Denver will be in possibly the best shape of all NFL teams.
Stay focused boys. Or we can what if all day long.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Agreed but I would also say the Denver FO missed on this. Usually they like NE draft for the future not the next year. Denver mortaged the house the past two years by paying the players tgey chose to pay. It worked out short term with a SB let's see how it works out over the next couple years.

Hard for me to retort w/o hearing why you think they missed...I gotcha on the mortgaging, explain a little further.

 

[cdumler7]

This addresses both what you and cdumbler are saying.
They paid the D just like Seattle did. Thus having to sacrafice on paying the O. (-) Manning. This appears to be a good way of managing the cap for a one year run. Both Sea and Den got a SB. So I'm not saying it's right or wrong. What I'm saying is those choices paved the way for what Denver could do outside of their drafts due to being finacially strapped. Thus they couldn't even if they had wanted to pay Os last year or the year before.
Please bring something new. We've heard a million times about who was drafted over tge past few drafts. We've heard how guys were
Hurt last year and now expected to be studs a thousand times. We know next year as of today Denver will be in possibly the best shape of all NFL teams.
Stay focused boys. Or we can what if all day long.

There is no what if though in this situation. You are not really bringing about a great argument. They had money devoted to both sides of the ball last year. On offense they had DT, Manning, and Clady all making very good money. So can't say they completely just sacrificed to give it to the defensive players. They stayed very balanced cap wise for the two sides.

They also haven't sacrificed the future for the now considering like we keep saying and you keep ignoring they have the most cap space of any team in the league next year. They also have a QB controlled cap so guys like Von Miller can make top money and the team can stay just fine.

For this year just look at what they have done. I know some of this is ignored by you but they signed Anderson, Hillman, Miller, Okung, and Wolfe. All key contributors either to the Broncos or another team last year. So you can say they were cap strapped which is a little true for this year but they still went and made some aggressive moves but were just very smart with their money.

And again you talk about draft picks and us trying to say they will be something great. All I said was they draft for the future just like the Patriots. Not like you guys have a patent on that and no other team can do it. And when I am talking talent on this team I am talking proven players. Again this is why Bucky Brooks thinks the Broncos are still a top-4 roster in the NFL because they have a lot of blue chip players like Miller, Ward, Marshall, Harris, Talib, DT, Sanders. These are all proven guys at their positions. This is not a what if game.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well you can't make a splash in free agency every single year. And Denver is still plenty talented, they managed to re-sign some of their free agents, but some (Osweiler, Jackson, Trevathan) simply priced themselves out of Denver. That happens, you can't bring back everyone.

I don't think they have signed all of their draft picks yet, not sure on that one. Regardless, I'll take a year with a tight cap when it's preceded by a Super Bowl win and followed by a year with the most cap room in the NFL. That seems to me to be smart cap management. Maybe you define it differently, but to me cap hell is several years of being over the cap and having to cut players just to get back under it (like the Saints have been in the last few seasons).

Ok I can agree with your assessment

 

[Broncos6482]

Ok I can agree with your assessment

 

[NWPATSFAN]

See this is where I don't think you really understand how the cap works. Over half the league has $11 million or less in cap space. Kind of how it goes. You have to spend money as the CBA demands that you spend at least 89% of the cap space you have for I think a 4-year period.

Beyond that because the Broncos have so much cap space next year contracts would be easy to write up if the Broncos really really wanted to keep certain players or go after certain players in FA. They like the roster they have though. Again others have taken notice of the talent that is still with the Broncos. 9 of the 11 starters on defense are still signed with most of them beyond even next year. Offensively they wanted to retool because the unit just does not fit what Kubiak wants to do. It is why you saw a lot of draft capital go to the offensive side of the ball this draft. I would bet that happens again next year as they continue to try and build up what Kubiak wants in the unit.

Also that figure of about $6 million from what I understand is an estimate based on all rookie contracts and PS players being signed. So should stay close to that and allows them to maybe up Von Miller's first year cap hit more than they thought so that later years are not so bad.

Also there is still plenty of wiggle room for the team. Such as good chance Colquitt is cut before the season. They used a draft pick on a punter so that gives them another $3.25 million in cap space to work with. So again not seeing how you can claim they are in cap hell when they have plenty of money for the team they have this year and even more next year to really go crazy with some contracts if they so desire. When you throw in a QB situation that is very cost controlled with 2 guys on rookie contracts and a cheap veteran they should be very good cap wise moving forward.

You guys are like Hawk fans. Say anything that is remotely negative and you go semi meltdown. First we're almost saying a lot of the same things. Second I'm no cap expert but I understand enough of it. If it was as easy as you like to make it sound Denver would've mortgaged the future on Os (unless they pissed him off and no amount of starting QB $ was bringing him back). You can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want. But please don't try to convince me Denver would rather have Sanchez starting this year. Admit the FO botched this one. Again let's not start with what will happen in 2018 and beyond. Please I beg of you.
Lastly I mentioned unless they restructure they are still strapped for this coming year. Cutting a player is the same as a restructure. Let's not debate the semantics of it. That money saved by cutting him goes to another player on the 53 man roster. Will it be more or less we don't even know he'll get cut.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Obviously trading two 2nd round picks for a frail Sam Bradford was the best move.

oh that would have been fantastic.......

 

[cdumler7]

You guys are like Hawk fans. Say anything that is remotely negative and you go semi meltdown. First we're almost saying a lot of the same things. Second I'm no cap expert but I understand enough of it. If it was as easy as you like to make it sound Denver would've mortgaged the future on Os (unless they pissed him off and no amount of starting QB $ was bringing him back). You can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want. But please don't try to convince me Denver would rather have Sanchez starting this year. Admit the FO botched this one. Again let's not start with what will happen in 2018 and beyond. Please I beg of you.
Lastly I mentioned unless they restructure they are still strapped for this coming year. Cutting a player is the same as a restructure. Let's not debate the semantics of it. That money saved by cutting him goes to another player on the 53 man roster. Will it be more or less we don't even know he'll get cut.

Few things...See to me you are making this too simple and I'm trying to show you how a team plans not only for this year but 3-years in advance and beyond.

Would I rather have Osweiler than Sanchez? Yes of course if we are talking straight up between the two Osweiler looks like the more promising option. We are not talking a straight up situation here though. We are talking at least $18 million a year for 4 years to Osweiler and that of $4.5 million for Sanchez for only this year and this year alone. So essentially just this upcoming season we are talking about Sanchez and Von Miller for the same price as what Osweiler will make cap hit wise. I will take Von Miller and Sanchez over that of Osweiler any day of the week. Then you throw in the Broncos beyond this year (I know how much you hate talking about the future) will have Von Miller and Lynch for close to the same price as that of Osweiler on a per year basis.

Now yes if the Broncos want to mortgage future years sign Osweiler this year. That means future years though when you have Osweiler and Miller both tied up in mega-deals the team is really going to struggle to sign anybody. With Lynch and Miller the team should be pretty good cap wise moving forward for the next few years.

You can't look at the Cap on just a one year basis when you are signing players. You have to look at how does this affect future years? Look at the Patriots for example since they have been the model team. You sign your core players and then everybody else is for the most part replaceable. That means you will let good not great talent walk out the door some and find a cheaper option to replace them. Doesn't mean that player will always be as good but the more your roster has good players signed to great contracts the harder it is to build a championship roster. A great example. Malik Jackson is a good player. I would have loved to have kept him. At the same time I'm not sure he is a top-7 talent at his position yet he is being paid that way. So the Broncos could have overpaid for him but then lost out on filling out the roster with other good players. He signed for $15 million a year. The Broncos were able to sign Anderson, Okung, Sanchez, Hillman, and Crick for that same value. Again that is how you have to view the cap in if I sign this player then where else do I have to cut from to fit this player?