The old "fighting in hockey debate"...

[elocomotive]

Well said. Fighting keeps a level of accountability that you don't see in other sports.

I agree somewhat, but it also promotes a level of violence that is wholly unacceptable in all the other major sports. I get tired of seeing fights after completely clean checks. Football seems to do just fine without fighting, and it is just as violent, if not more violent, than hockey.

Personally, I've been a longtime proponent of getting rid of fighting in hockey. I know that's not the popular position among hockey fans who say "it's always been a part of the game" or who like fighting. But for me, it's completely uncivilized behavior that shouldn't be tolerated unless the only function of the sport (boxing, etc.).

For me, the inertia of history is not a good argument against change.

 

[SuperFlyer13]

LOL If you asked some of my subordinates...I bet some would agree with you too!!

I hear he could really swing a good purse! Or was it his hips?

 

[TOX1]

Back on topic. Sorry 46-2.

 

[filosofy29]

I think fighting in the game should be allowed. I also think that the instigator rule should be tossed and go back to the way it was before. Otherwise, the league would be overrun by dickfaces like Matt Cooke, Jaarko Ruutu, Steve Avery, etc. I'd rather see two ogres fight than have these types of mosquito hymens running all over the place hurting the guys I DO enjoy watching.

However, guys like Shelley, Laraque, Boogaard, Orr, etc. should be kicked out of the league. If you can't play the game, get the fuck out. I HATE the staged fights. They do absolutely nothing to or for the game (ok, maybe 1 out of every 100 do, but you get the idea). If teams insist on carrying one of these goon type guys on the team, then make the penalties harsh for "staged" fights. For example, if Boogaard goes out and fights Shelley at the drop of the puck. Suspend both guys for 10 games. If either are involved in another staged fight, 20 games.....another one, 30 games. NO NHL GM is going to want to pay a guy $1mil per year to sit out for most of it. OK, Brian Burke will, but still, I digress ;-)~

I have no problem with guys fighting after dirty checks, fighting each other out of frustration (which often mitigates the chances that a tit for tat escalates later in the game), fighting to protect a goalie, fighting after clean hits (regardless of if the hit is clean, this also builds team unity and keeps people honest). If big hitters don't like to fight, then they have to think long and hard about checking some one. It's a checks and balances system. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Fighting is something that most people don't understand, and I'm ok with that. However, if you take fighting out of the game, you better believe, the Cooke's/Avery's/Ruutuu's will run rampant. Fighting keeps the integrity of the game and keeps fucktards like the aforementioned to a minimum. Take out the instigator rule on probably NONE of the three are even in the NHL.....or if they are, they don't play cheap.

Anyway, just my humble opinion.

 

[forty_three]

I agree somewhat, but it also promotes a level of violence that is wholly unacceptable in all the other major sports. I get tired of seeing fights after completely clean checks. Football seems to do just fine without fighting, and it is just as violent, if not more violent, than hockey.

Personally, I've been a longtime proponent of getting rid of fighting in hockey. I know that's not the popular position among hockey fans who say "it's always been a part of the game" or who like fighting. But for me, it's completely uncivilized behavior that shouldn't be tolerated unless the only function of the sport (boxing, etc.).

For me, the inertia of history is not a good argument against change.

It does? How many football players have cheapshotted another player on the field? How many football players show disrespect after completing the most simple of tasks? How many football players lead violent lives off the field too?

I don't agree that hockey is an inherently violent sport. It is a fast paced, physically demanding, non-stop sport played in tight quarters. There is a lot of passion. There are lots of collisions. There are tempers. And I think it one place where self governance works well. As I said, sometimes the threat of retribution alone is enough to make the players back off or step into line.

There is another prime mission in the game of hockey, and the possibility to have to physically man up is always there. Especially if you launch into an endzone dance for completing a pass.

It's not the inertia of history, it's the fear that you would wind up with a sport represented by the Ray Lewis' and Pacman Jones' of the world. You want Alex Ovechkin skating for 60 minutes in a box with Sean Avery and Darcy Tucker without Erskine there to keep them in line?

I seriously doubt it.

 

[elocomotive]

It does? How many football players have cheapshotted another player on the field? How many football players show disrespect after completing the most simple of tasks? How many football players lead violent lives off the field too?

See, herein lies some of the failed logic of fighting for me. Personally, I think it's one of the most ridiculous things in sport. Your last two questions aren't pertinent to this issue and result largely from the socioeconomic status of the players who play the game rather than the elements of the game itself. Sports like football and basketball can be played by anyone because they are cheap, requiring really only a ball. Sports like hockey are the domain of the middle and upper class, requiring an expensive rink that most communities do not have and lots of equipment to get started (as well as ice time, which is pricey too). But back to the relevant question...

For starters, cheap shots STILL exist in hockey with fighting, so that is a completely moot point. We saw it all... year... long.. this season. Frankly, the Caps don't have a "goon" on their roster, and I didn't notice any increased levels of cheap shots coming our way this year.

If fighting solves the issues of cheap shots, it's news to me, and here are two scenarios that give you the why.

(1) The cheap shot guy WANTS to get in a fight. Ever watch Steve Downie play? That guy will slash your best player and then actually be excited to get in a tussle afterward.

(2) The player taking the cheap shot knows he won't have to fight. Many players know that if they go after another guy, someone on their team will step in and take the blows for them when the fight goes down. Often times, NEITHER of the combatants in a fight were part of original infraction to begin with. And most of the time, the fight does not actually happen at the time of the really bad hit but is some kind of staged affair later.

In both of these cases, the "fight" itself fails to send the message to the cheap shot artist. This is the 21st century. It shouldn't be part of the sport and fines/suspensions should handle the workload of ridding the sport of guys who want to play that way. Kids watch the game and hockey should be setting a better example. And if cheap shots weren't in the game b/c of fighting I'd agree with you, but they are still around. They have been worse this year than most.

Whatever scenario you have, cheap shots and bad hits are going to happen. The game is played at a high speed, people make bad decisions, and people get carried away or have malicious intent. Most of those decisions are made on the spur of the moment (the last one being the only one that doesn't). So trying to fight a guy b/c of bad judgment is not going to change that. He made the decision in a split second and never thought "will I have to fight someone?" during that split second.

It is one of the biggest logical fallacies in sports that fighting solves these problems. In most sports, guys getting into fights is viewed with scorn, public humiliation, and as uncivilized. Guys get suspended, their public persona takes a hit, and they are ridiculed. Not in hockey where many embrace it. To me, this is an absolute embarrassment, and just one of many reasons hockey will never be accepted in the mainstream.

 

[Automattic]

I will admit that there are too many fights for the wrong reasons. But when the gloves are dropped to come to the aid of a fellow teammate who was targeted with intent to injure, it can bring chills. I love a good sense of pride and loyalty. Downey gave a good explanation in the 2nd half of this video...YouTube - Draper/Downey react to the Lidstrom hit

 

[filosofy29]

See, herein lies some of the failed logic of fighting for me. Personally, I think it's one of the most ridiculous things in sport. Your last two questions aren't pertinent to this issue and result largely from the socioeconomic status of the players who play the game rather than the elements of the game itself. Sports like football and basketball can be played by anyone because they are cheap, requiring really only a ball. Sports like hockey are the domain of the middle and upper class, requiring an expensive rink that most communities do not have and lots of equipment to get started (as well as ice time, which is pricey too). But back to the relevant question...

For starters, cheap shots STILL exist in hockey with fighting, so that is a completely moot point. We saw it all... year... long.. this season. Frankly, the Caps don't have a "goon" on their roster, and I didn't notice any increased levels of cheap shots coming our way this year. - Because the NHL has implemented the Instigator Rule. Take that away and guys like this become more and more scarce. Downie can at least play a little too. Just make his suspensions for said cheap shots stiffer.

If fighting solves the issues of cheap shots, it's news to me, and here are two scenarios that give you the why.

(1) The cheap shot guy WANTS to get in a fight. Ever watch Steve Downie play? That guy will slash your best player and then actually be excited to get in a tussle afterward. - That's up to the league to implement suspensions and fines.

(2) The player taking the cheap shot knows he won't have to fight. Many players know that if they go after another guy, someone on their team will step in and take the blows for them when the fight goes down. Often times, NEITHER of the combatants in a fight were part of original infraction to begin with. And most of the time, the fight does not actually happen at the time of the really bad hit but is some kind of staged affair later. Once again because of the Instigator Rule that was implemented (in my opinion stupidly) by the NHL.

In both of these cases, the "fight" itself fails to send the message to the cheap shot artist. This is the 21st century. It shouldn't be part of the sport and fines/suspensions should handle the workload of ridding the sport of guys who want to play that way. Kids watch the game and hockey should be setting a better example. And if cheap shots weren't in the game b/c of fighting I'd agree with you, but they are still around. They have been worse this year than most. Kids also watch movies with fighting and murder in them.....parents need to take over here.

Whatever scenario you have, cheap shots and bad hits are going to happen. The game is played at a high speed, people make bad decisions, and people get carried away or have malicious intent. Most of those decisions are made on the spur of the moment (the last one being the only one that doesn't). So trying to fight a guy b/c of bad judgment is not going to change that. He made the decision in a split second and never thought "will I have to fight someone?" during that split second. I don't think there will ever be a true blue way to get perfection. However, I think it's in the leagues best interest to find deterrents.

It is one of the biggest logical fallacies in sports that fighting solves these problems. In most sports, guys getting into fights is viewed with scorn, public humiliation, and as uncivilized. Guys get suspended, their public persona takes a hit, and they are ridiculed. Not in hockey where many embrace it. To me, this is an absolute embarrassment, and just one of many reasons hockey will never be accepted in the mainstream. I disagree, but fair enough, that's why we all get opinions ;-)

See red.

 

[elocomotive]

Parents need to take over here.

And not let their kids watch hockey?

Look, I've had this argument with hockey diehards a dozen times. I'm in the minority and I know it. I also think I'm right and won't be swayed. So take it for what it is. I don't think it belongs in the game.

 

[filosofy29]

And not let their kids watch hockey?

Look, I've had this argument with hockey diehards a dozen times. I'm in the minority and I know it. I also think I'm right and won't be swayed. So take it for what it is. I don't think it belongs in the game.

I'm not trying to sway you Eloco. I'm giving my side of the argument, no need to be so sensitive (as I was not intending to be a dick.....I apologize if it came off this way). I respect your opinion for sure. I'm also not implying that you are wrong. I just disagree with it. However, I'm not an authority on the subject and in no way am I "right".

As for the parents thing. Yeah, if the fighting bugs you that much and you feel that it is going to negatively affect your kids behavior or respect for the other kids that play the sport. Just like a movie. Even if it's an awesome movie with great suspense, great storyline, great writing.....if it has tits and ass in a couple particular scenes that you don't want your kids to see, don't let them watch it.

I don't particularly like watching basketball anymore because of all the "me-first", gun toting players. However, if my son or daughter liked the sport, I'd support them. I'd also try to instill my personal points of view about teamwork and respecting your opponents. I'd tell them the things I like about basketball and the things I dislike. Just as you could with hockey.

Anyway, I think we may just have to agree to disagree as we are on opposite ends of the spectrum ;-)~ Have a good evening Loco.

 

[dash]

Just to be clear, this is not the three Major Junior leagues in Canada, rather the 10 Junior 'A' leagues (but it is definitely a strong move)

Special Report ? Fighting To Be Removed From Junior Hockey By The Start Of 2015 Season : The Junior Hockey News

 

[scoutyjones2]

fighting has been declining for the last 6 years...I see no reason to get rid of self policing in the NHL.


I would keep it and make the ice the size it is in the Olympics.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Only 32 replies to this thread over 4 years? It's amazing that we've not had a single heated debate on this topic in all that time.

 

[dash]

Only 32 replies to this thread over 4 years? It's amazing that we've not had a single heated debate on this topic in all that time.

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

 

[dare2be]

Only 32 replies to this thread over 4 years? It's amazing that we've not had a single heated debate on this topic in all that time.

Goes to show where the majority of us stand on the issue.

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Wait, wut?

 

[pixburgher66]

Oh no...don't bring it up guys...YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I DISCUSS FIGHTING! *starts turning green*


Yes, I realize the irony of making a Hulk reference when discussing my dislike of fighting in hockey.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

My opinion has moved to all fighting in hockey is senseless and pointless, but you guys know that.

 

[elocomotive]

My opinion has moved to all fighting in hockey is senseless and pointless, but you guys know that.

I prefer to call it the "correct and inevitable viewpoint."

 

[Darkstone42]

Oh no...don't bring it up guys...YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I DISCUSS FIGHTING! *starts turning green*


Yes, I realize the irony of making a Hulk reference when discussing my dislike of fighting in hockey.

Man, until you pointed it out, it went right over my head.

But then there's this.

And the universe makes sense.

 

[elocomotive]

The "credible" Hulk - lol.