The NFL's Best O-lines

[erckm510]

Yeah, but can Kilgore play center at a high level? I'm guessing no.

Did Goodwin? I'm saying hell no. Niners survived pretty well.

 

[NinerSickness]

Did Goodwin? I'm saying hell no. Niners survived pretty well.

Goodwin was pretty good in 2011.

But you're saying since the team had a crappy center & the OL was great overall that they should continue going with a crappy center relying on Iupati's replacement to continue to make a crappy center look ok? In other words:

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG?

 

[erckm510]

Goodwin was pretty good in 2011.

But you're saying since the team had a crappy center & the OL was great overall that they should continue going with a crappy center relying on Iupati's replacement to continue to make a crappy center look ok? In other words:

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG?

Wtf does 2011 have to do with last year??

Did I say that Kilgore was a crappy C? No. You did. Simply pointing out the Niners had a crappy C last year.

Honestly how do you get any of this conversation and get the bolded part? How the hell do you jump to a conclusion like that??

Also you equation is nonsense. Thomas + Martin + 8 mil that can be used on anything + 3rd round comp pick + being able to draft another G or C in the 2014 draft > All pro OLG.

 

[imac_21]

Goodwin was pretty good in 2011.

But you're saying since the team had a crappy center & the OL was great overall that they should continue going with a crappy center relying on Iupati's replacement to continue to make a crappy center look ok? In other words:

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG?

Wait, you're only planning on keeping Iupati for one season?

 

[NinerSickness]

Wtf does 2011 have to do with last year??

Did I say that Kilgore was a crappy C? No. You did. Simply pointing out the Niners had a crappy C last year.

Honestly how do you get any of this conversation and get the bolded part? How the hell do you jump to a conclusion like that??

Ok, then what was your point bringing up Goodwin's suck'tivity?

And what's your take on Kilgore? Bad? Average? Good?

Also you equation is nonsense. Thomas + Martin + 8 mil that can be used on anything + 3rd round comp pick + being able to draft another G or C in the 2014 draft > All pro OLG.

You don't realize it, but THIS is the equation that doesn't make sense. Losing a big FA doesn't guarantee getting a 3rd-round comp' pick. It would if the Niners sign zero or small URFAs who weren't cut. That's not a given.

And you're putting Martin on one side and not the other. That makes no sense.

And the ability to draft a G or C in "2014" (I assume you meant 2015 since the 2014 draft is over) would go in both scenarios as well.

 

[NinerSickness]

Wait, you're only planning on keeping Iupati for one season?

I'd love it if he signed long term, but if he doesn't I think he's a perfect candidate for the franchise tag (assuming Kaep re-signs). After that, the evaluation starts all over again.

 

[imac_21]

I'd love it if he signed long term, but if he doesn't I think he's a perfect candidate for the franchise tag (assuming Kaep re-signs). After that, the evaluation starts all over again.

Okay, but if you're going to allow for the 8M in cap room for one year in your equation, than you can only have the "All Pro OG" on the other side of that equation has to have the 1 year caveat as well. You can't treat that 8M in cap room as a one year situation, but treat Iupati as a long term part of the equation.

If we take your equation

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG

at face value (the "Suck bag" component being incredibly biased), you have to add the "for one season" to the right side of the equation.

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

I also think we need to re-visit the dollar value. The transition cost for OL this year was 10.039M. The franchise was 11.654. If we assume he's transitioned rather than franchised, and allow for a slight increase in the cost (let's say it goes to 10.5M) the equation has to become:

Suck bag + Martin + $10.5 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

Furthermore, given the history of our front office, it's a safe bet we get a comp pick for him. It may not be a 3rd, but would likely be a 4th. So we'd be looking at a pick around 140th overall (that's a low estimate) which gives us (I'm also changing the > sign to a VS)

Suck bag + Martin + $10.5 million for one season + 140th pick in 2016 draft VS Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

 

[NinerSickness]

Okay, but if you're going to allow for the 8M in cap room for one year in your equation, than you can only have the "All Pro OG" on the other side of that equation has to have the 1 year caveat as well.

Suck bag + Martin + $8 million for one season > Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

Although I thought that was understood, you're right. It should go on both sides. The reason I underlined "for one season" on one side was to make the distinction between 8 million and 8 million "per season."

Suck bag + Martin + $10.5 million for one season + 140th pick in 2016 draft VS Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

That's fair. I thought it was less for a guard & was going by the aforementioned 8 million number.

That said, I'll take the latter every day of the week.

 

[TobyTyler]

Right now I think the Niners have the best OL in the NFL. But I think it could be even better than it already is next season if they re-sign or franchise Iupati.

LOL! "Gore up the gut for no gain" ring a bell?

 

[NinerSickness]

LOL! "Gore up the gut for no gain" ring a bell?

"You were a mistake and I wish I aborted you." ring a bell?

 

[imac_21]

Although I thought that was understood, you're right. It should go on both sides. The reason I underlined "for one season" on one side was to make the distinction between 8 million and 8 million "per season."



That's fair. I thought it was less for a guard & was going by the aforementioned 8 million number.

That said, I'll take the latter every day of the week.

The equation in the quote was lost:

Suck bag + Martin + $10.5 million for one season + 140th pick in 2016 draft VS Martin + All pro' OLG for one season

I would certainly take the former. Especially since we're only getting one year out of Iupati in your situation (that's with him transitioned, not franchised, so there's no protection against him leaving either). If we were to transition him the next year his number goes to 12.6M.

That 10.5M can be used as upfront money for a contract with someone else or it can be used to sign a very good OG (say at 5 or 6M) and still have enough money left to address any potential weakness on the team with a quality player (with another 5 or so M left over).

If it were possible to get Iupati locked up long term, that would be the ideal of course. But I wouldn't use a tag on him. We can't field superstars at every position, and having one at OG is a low priority for me.

 

[erckm510]

Ok, then what was your point bringing up Goodwin's suck'tivity?

And what's your take on Kilgore? Bad? Average? Good?

You don't realize it, but THIS is the equation that doesn't make sense. Losing a big FA doesn't guarantee getting a 3rd-round comp' pick. It would if the Niners sign zero or small URFAs who weren't cut. That's not a given.

And you're putting Martin on one side and not the other. That makes no sense.

And the ability to draft a G or C in "2014" (I assume you meant 2015 since the 2014 draft is over) would go in both scenarios as well.

Thought it was obvious. Niners had a sucky C last season and the O'line did well. You seem to think Iupati covers for Goodwin's suckiness.

He's better then Goodwin and Snyder. Might not be saying much.

I know how the comp system works Sick. You realize the Niners have gotten comp picks 3 out of the last 4 drafts right? Baalke knows how to work it. He doesn't sign a ton of FA's. I don't see how he doesn't get a comp pick for next draft(losing Whitner, Brown, Dixon, Manningham: getting Bethea, Cook). Niners got a 3rd for Goldson. Why wouldn't I think that Iupati would net a 3rd?

 

[NinerSickness]

Thought it was obvious. Niners had a sucky C last season and the O'line did well. You seem to think Iupati covers for Goodwin's suckiness.

Success despite an extremely weak individual position is not a good reason to continue with suckiness at that position. That's not a good philosophy at all.

 

[NinerSickness]

If it were possible to get Iupati locked up long term, that would be the ideal of course. But I wouldn't use a tag on him. We can't field superstars at every position, and having one at OG is a low priority for me.

Wouldn't a long-term contract essentially be like using the tag on him as far as the first year is concerned? That is, unless you would want it back-loaded, which I wouldn't like 'em doing (unless they needed the space for another player not named Crabtree). Wouldn't you predict Iupati will get a record-breaking guard contract?

 

[erckm510]

Success despite an extremely weak individual position is not a good reason to continue with suckiness at that position. That's not a good philosophy at all.

It's not. And obviously not one the Niners subscribe too based on the way they draft. But you doubt Thomas can take over because of his injury. It's not something that can be judged until he's healthy. He certainly has the talent to take over for Iupati and play at a high level. There's no denying that.

Basically you think Iupati is irreplaceable and I think Iupati is replaceable. He's worth at least 8 mil a year to some team. I would just rather have that team not be the Niners.

However if the Niners get a good deal in re-signing him then by all means I would want Iupati on the team. But, like you said, Iupati might get the richest G contract ever. So just sounds like it'll be too rich for the Niners.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Wouldn't a long-term contract essentially be like using the tag on him as far as the first year is concerned? That is, unless you would want it back-loaded, which I wouldn't like 'em doing (unless they needed the space for another player not named Crabtree). Wouldn't you predict Iupati will get a record-breaking guard contract?

Carl Nicks-type contract, probably. ~31mil guaranteed. 6mil first year signing bonus. It'll average about 7-8mil per year.

It's gonna come down to Crabs vs. Iupati next off season. No way we keep both. And we just took a couple of interior OL so it looks like Crabs will win.

 

[NinerSickness]

Carl Nicks-type contract, probably. ~31mil guaranteed. 6mil first year signing bonus. It'll average about 7-8mil per year.

It's gonna come down to Crabs vs. Iupati next off season. No way we keep both. And we just took a couple of interior OL so it looks like Crabs will win.

So I finally looked it up, and they don't have a different franchise / transition tag number for tackles, guards and centers. That's kind of dumb IMO.

 

[deep9er]

Carl Nicks-type contract, probably. ~31mil guaranteed. 6mil first year signing bonus. It'll average about 7-8mil per year.

It's gonna come down to Crabs vs. Iupati next off season. No way we keep both. And we just took a couple of interior OL so it looks like Crabs will win.

it could be neither wins.

 

[tomikcon1971]

it could be neither wins.

I think Crabs might price himself out of SFO......

 

[NinerSickness]

I'd be open to putting the franchise tag on Crabby for a maximum of 1 year if it doesn't look like a good replacement is available & other factors made it work (cap, other FAs and so on). Niners missed the boat on getting a future replacement by passing on Donte Moncrief IMO.

So far, Baalke seems to like getting receivers by trading for one (Boldin, Stevie, Baldwin). Maybe he'll do so again.