The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[MAGA2024]

Basketball, probably more than football, baseball, or hockey, when identifying the GOAT, is more dependent upon the position the player played and the era in which he played. If you want to call Jordan the GOAT of point guards during his time in the NBA, you would get no argument from me. But all players of all positions, all time? No. Too many variables involved.

Jordan was a Shooting Guard.

 

[Wamu]

So, you got....six...count em...six...that it?..six...point guards with more assists per game? Out of what.....32 teams?.... with more assissts during MJ's time? And that is supposed to impress me and prove to me that he wasn't a point guard? LOL. Dude. Please tell m\e you have something better than that.

It's great entertainment how little you know about the NBA.

 

[PolarVortex]

Jordan was a Shooting Guard.

You can define him however you want but he played like a point guard. The average shooting guards in his era did not average 5.3 assists per game.

 

[MAGA2024]

Now this is a doozy. You should look stats up before saying anything. I said 25+ points for 20 consecutive seasons.

Malone averaged at least 25 ppg for 11 consecutive seasons and 12 total.

Kareem averaged at least 25 ppg for 9 seasons and 10 total.

"none of those three can touch Jordan's dominance."

Already have told you multiple times now I have MJ as the GOAT. Why don't you pay attention?

Is there a problem with your brain? Because it doesn't seem to work properly.

So you're going to split hairs between LeBron averaging 25.0 in 2021 and Jabbar avering 24.8 in 1980... and why 25 PPG... why not 30-PPG seasons, since we're talking GOAT here?

...and if you have Jordan as the GOAT then WHY are you arguing with me?? Is something wrong with YOUR brain?

lol

 

[Wamu]

Translation: You got your shit pushed in with facts and substance and have NOTHING to offer in terms of a rebuttal, so instead you resort to insults.

Typical LeBron fan.

SMH

He's not a LeBron fan. He's a Golden State fan.

Seems you think if anyone says something decent about LeBron you loose yer mind. Don't change.

 

[MAGA2024]

He doesn't even know. He's called me a LeBron nut-hugger before yet chooses to ignore I have MJ as the GOAT.

Maybe he eats crayons? Would explain why his brain don't work right.

Don't believe I called you a LeBron nut-hugger - lololol... don't even know who the hell you are, TBH "except" you call Jordan the GOAT yet you defend LeBron.

Strange...

 

[tlance]

So, you got....six...count em...six...that it?..six...point guards with more assists per game? Out of what.....32 teams?.... with more assissts during MJ's time? And that is supposed to impress me and prove to me that he wasn't a point guard? LOL. Dude. Please tell m\e you have something better than that.

How about checking his player page?

He is listed as a shooting guard/small forward. 2 positions that really are interchangeable.

Most perimeter players with usage rates as high as Jordan’s get 5 assists per game. That is not a very high number.

Jordan had 1 outlier season in which he averaged 8 assists per game. That year he was 10th in assists.

For most of his career he couldn’t crack the top 20 in assists per game.

In other words, his assist totals would have ranked him well below league average against other starting point guards from his era, but consistently close to the top of the SG/SF assist leaders.

So do you really want to keep calling him a PG?

 

[Wamu]

Don't believe I called you a LeBron nut-hugger - lololol... don't even know who the hell you are, TBH "except" you call Jordan the GOAT yet you defend LeBron.

Strange...

So mentioning things he's done during his career is defending him? I'm going by what his career stats say. Not offering any type of opinion. You on the other hand have based everything on your hatred of him.

 

[tlance]

You can define him however you want but he played like a point guard. The average shooting guards in his era did not average 5.3 assists per game.

Jordan wasn’t an average shooting guard though, was he?

5.3 assists per game is a pretty mediocre number for a starting point guard from the 80s and 90s.

You can choose to die on this hill if you really want, but he wasn’t a point guard and he didn’t play like a point guard.

Point guards from that era generally had the responsibility to set up others before looking for their own shot. That was not Jordan.

His job was to score.

 

[rmilia1]

He's not a LeBron fan. He's a Golden State fan.

Seems you think if anyone says something decent about LeBron you loose yer mind. Don't change.

That's actually LeBrons strongest case for GOAT

MJ fans are obsessed with him. To an unhealthy level.

That tells you who they think is the biggest threat to him legacy wise. Like no Harlem Globetrotter fan is spending years telling you why the Generals weren't that good.

That's the old Hamlet line " the fans doth protest too much me thinks' lol

 

[MAGA2024]

You can define him however you want but he played like a point guard. The average shooting guards in his era did not average 5.3 assists per game.

I mean, Jordan did play the PG position during 88-89 season (when he averaged 33 PPG and 8 AST on 54% shooting), and you could argue he (and Pippen) played the PG "role" during the 90's (of bringing the ball up and facilitating) since the Triangle Offense they ran was based on ball-movement... but Jordan's primary / most important role was to shoot the ball (ie; a Shooting Guard).

 

[PolarVortex]

How about checking his player page?

He is listed as a shooting guard/small forward. 2 positions that really are interchangeable.

Most perimeter players with usage rates as high as Jordan’s get 5 assists per game. That is not a very high number.

Jordan had 1 outlier season in which he averaged 8 assists per game. That year he was 10th in assists.

For most of his career he couldn’t crack the top 20 in assists per game.

In other words, his assist totals would have ranked him well below league average against other starting point guards from his era, but consistently close to the top of the SG/SF assist leaders.

So do you really want to keep calling him a PG?

Good post. I appreciate your input. I think position-labeling players like Jordan, LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Magic, etc, is a fool's game. They do not traditionally play like the position they are assigned to or labeled as.

 

[MAGA2024]

He's not a LeBron fan. He's a Golden State fan.

Seems you think if anyone says something decent about LeBron you loose yer mind. Don't change.

Whatever he is he brings zero (0) facts / substance to the table, and therefore has zero (0) credibility... and I have given LeBron props for his longevity and his Offensive greatness, and the awardd/accolades he's accumiliated, so no, I'm not losing anything.

 

[Wamu]

Good post. I appreciate your input. I think position-labeling players like Jordan, LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Magic, etc, is a fool's game. They do not traditionally play like the position they are assigned to or labeled as.

So calling Magic, who I have as the best PG of all time, isn't a point guard?

 

[tlance]

Glad to entertain ewe, Cupcake

Good post. I appreciate your input. I think position-labeling players like Jordan, LeBron, Westbrook, Oscar, Magic, etc, is a fool's game. They do not traditionally play like the position they are assigned to.

I think in today’s game it is.

Like what is Jokic? Point center? Curry is listed as a PG but often plays more like a wing. Today most teams play positionless systems.

In Jordan’s era player roles mostly were defined by their positions.

And I think what makes the greats so great is when you compare their stats to their peers who played the same positions, there really is no comparison.

 

[Wamu]

Whatever he is he brings zero (0) facts / substance to the table, and therefore has zero (0) credibility... and I have given LeBron props for his longevity and his Offensive greatness, and the awardd/accolades he's accumiliated, so no, I'm not losing anything.

msgkings has zero credibility? Ain't nobody gonna agree with you on that. He's schooling you.

 

[MAGA2024]

That's actually LeBrons strongest case for GOAT

MJ fans are obsessed with him. To an unhealthy level.

Kindly remind me who started this thread... a Jordan fan "or" a LeBron fan?

 

[MAGA2024]

msgkings has zero credibility? Ain't nobody gonna agree with you on that. He's schooling you.

LOLOL... schooling me with zero facts and substance?

Sure pal... you clearly haven't read this thread.

 

[PolarVortex]

I think in today’s game it is.

Like what is Jokic? Point center? Curry is listed as a PG but often plays more like a wing. Today most teams play positionless systems.

In Jordan’s era player roles mostly were defined by their positions.

And I think what makes the greats so great is when you compare their stats to their peers who played the same positions, there really is no comparison.

I'll fully admit that I don't follow today's game. I abandoned it when the NBA abandoned Seattle. I can't comment on the current NBA with any knowledge.

 

[PolarVortex]

So calling Magic, who I have as the best PG of all time, isn't a point guard?

I think it is bullshit that you have to assign one of the five available positions to him. None of those five positions appropriately defined him.