The cancer is in remission

[CameronFrye]

Most Giants fans don't argue the legality we argue that the hit was unnecessary - which it was - which is why Scott Cousins is a fucking dick.

So yeah what Cameron said.

Edit: In no way do I think what Nate did in the Olympics is comparable to that hit on Posey. I don't remember Snow on Pudge for some reason - anyway I've never seen any hit on a catcher more blatantly unnecessary than that hit was besides maybe Pete Rose in the Allstar game - and even that was a clean hit, much cleaner than that little fuck Cousins hit on Buster.

Rep.

 

[Toolrulzz]

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | '03 NLDS, Gm 4: Pudge hangs on to secure series win - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia



This may be nothing more than a homer's view, but Pudge had his head up and deliberately moved to block Snow from the plate. Posey was stationary, did not have the ball and was not blocking the plate. To me the Cousins hit was unnecessary. He could have slid in any manner and he would have been easily safe.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Cousins could have tried to slide and risk that Posey would tag him, true. But when I watch the video, I see that Posey is receiving the ball, that he drops it on the far side (Cousins would have to have X-ray vision to see the dropped ball, to be able to see through Buster) and Posey moved as if he had the ball to tag him (he received the ball, and turned and moved to his left with the mitt as if he had the ball) and he was moving to block off the plate. It also all happened in less than a second (the time when Buster was catching the ball, dropping it, turning, and getting hit hard).

Look at seconds 33-43 in this MLB video (it's slo-mo) :
Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | FLA@SF: Posey helped off after collision at home - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Or look at around 0:46-0:52 (different angle, CF camera instead of camera from behind the play) when it shows Posey dropping the ball (and acting as if he caught it). I don't see how Cousins could have known that Posey didn't have the ball.

I absolutely hate that Buster was hurt, but I don't call Cousins a piece of shit for the play. IF Cousins had tried to slide around, and IF Buster had come up with the ball, Cousins could have been tagged out - the ball got there early enough and if Buster had not dropped it he could have tagged him. Buster was also moving to his left as if he had the ball and was going to try to apply a tag while cutting off the plate.

If you look at the Pudge video recently posted in this thread :
Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | '03 NLDS, Gm 4: Pudge hangs on to secure series win - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

you will see something similar in that
1) Pudge was not initially blocking the plate
2) He receives the ball
3) He then goes to cut off the plate and apply the tag

That is similar to what Buster did. A difference being that Buster had dropped the ball (altho I don't see how Cousins could have seen it) and he was moving as if to apply a tag. Also Pudge remained standing and lunged to block the plate (he was much further away from blocking the plate than Buster was when each was receiving the ball) while Buster was turning to his left with the glove and dropping to his knees while going to his left to block the plate.

It was an extremely close play (in the Buster hit - Snow had longer to decide and made the same decision - hit the catcher) - the decision to slide or to hit had to be made in a split-second, and the play won the game. Watch the video and imagine what would have happened if Posey had not dropped the ball, and managed to hold onto it after the collision. Would Cousins have been out? I don't know, but I think it would have been a very close play that would have needed slo-mo replay to determine if the ump made the right call.

 

[tzill]

Were the posters on this board as upset about the take-down that JT Snow did on Pudge in 2003, or when Nate took out the Chinese catcher in the Olympics? Both of those hits were rather violent (even if neither catcher ended up drastically injured).

I hate what happened to Buster, but it was a 100% "legal" move. I would support a change to the rules similar to what is legal in college ball (you aren't allowed to take out fielders at 2B or C). But no matter how much I hate what happened, it was a legal move. It was an extra-innings tied game. That asshole Cousins scored the winning run in the 12th. It wasn't as if this happened in the 3rd inning when one team was up by 10 runs. It sucked. It still sucks. They should change the rules. But it was a valid play (just like JT in the NLDS in 2003).

Not by the official rules of MLB it isn't. Check the rulebook.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Not by the official rules of MLB it isn't. Check the rulebook.

Ah. Well, instead I'll take the same position as I do with the strike zone (umpires don't use the rulebook about what is or isn't a strike when determining strikes and balls) :

It was played the same way that guys have been playing it for decades, so it was no better or worse than the other "take out the catcher" hits over the years.

I would definitely support a rule change (or, a "clarification" or "ruling") so that enforcement is changed. But I don't blame Cousins for playing it like everybody else.

 

[SFAnthem]

Ah. Well, instead I'll take the same position as I do with the strike zone (umpires don't use the rulebook about what is or isn't a strike when determining strikes and balls) :

It was played the same way that guys have been playing it for decades, so it was no better or worse than the other "take out the catcher" hits over the years.

I would definitely support a rule change (or, a "clarification" or "ruling") so that enforcement is changed. But I don't blame Cousins for playing it like everybody else.

The other guys have already stated my sentiments much better than I can.

But i do blame Cousins. That bullshit hit was grandstanding. It reeked of the last guy on the bench trying to keep his roster spot, so he overdoes the few moments of action he sees.

 

[tzill]

Ah. Well, instead I'll take the same position as I do with the strike zone (umpires don't use the rulebook about what is or isn't a strike when determining strikes and balls) :

It was played the same way that guys have been playing it for decades, so it was no better or worse than the other "take out the catcher" hits over the years.

I would definitely support a rule change (or, a "clarification" or "ruling") so that enforcement is changed. But I don't blame Cousins for playing it like everybody else.

Indeed; the strikezone "interpretation" is a fair analogy. However, if you think about it, why can't a runner "blow up" the 1B on a bang/bang play, and yet can do the same to a catcher? It's inconsistent and unsupported by the rules. BTW, I've felt this way ever since Rose blew up Tenace...and I rooted for the Reds in that series.

 

[CameronFrye]

Marco - No matter what you say, you cannot defend the two most important points that I made:

1. That Cousins led with his right shoulder and lept across the plate making initial contact with Buster's right shoulder. This was not only unnecessary, but was excessive no matter your view on the legality of a collision with the catcher.

2. Cousins did not run toward home plate and then make contact with Posey as he was about to tag the plate. Cousins left his feet 2 or 3 running steps before he had to and he launched his body toward posey with the intention of "blowing him up" - a point that he made directly after the game (but evidence of which ahs disappeared).

Those two points combine to make Cousins the piece of shit that he is. I hope that fuck never plays another pitch in the Majors again. If he does, I wish only the worst kind of career-ending ACL injury on him. If I believed in voodoo, I would be putting needles into the knees and ankles of his doll.

I would sooner wish Zito to sign an extension with the Giants than see that piece of shit play in the bigs.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Man the Marlins must be pathetically desperate if Rowand makes the team. He is remarkable but not shockingly hitting worse than Cousins.

4/37 .108 on the bright side for him he's only struck out 8 times - looks like he's making progress since he attempted to hit for us.

Can somebody un-rep me for saying that Aaron Rowand is remarkable? That was supposed to be "remarkably". Damnit. And fuck Scott Cousins.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Marco - No matter what you say, you cannot defend the two most important points that I made:

1. That Cousins led with his right shoulder and lept across the plate making initial contact with Buster's right shoulder. This was not only unnecessary, but was excessive no matter your view on the legality of a collision with the catcher.

2. Cousins did not run toward home plate and then make contact with Posey as he was about to tag the plate. Cousins left his feet 2 or 3 running steps before he had to and he launched his body toward posey with the intention of "blowing him up" - a point that he made directly after the game (but evidence of which ahs disappeared).

Those two points combine to make Cousins the piece of shit that he is. I hope that fuck never plays another pitch in the Majors again. If he does, I wish only the worst kind of career-ending ACL injury on him. If I believed in voodoo, I would be putting needles into the knees and ankles of his doll.

I would sooner wish Zito to sign an extension with the Giants than see that piece of shit play in the bigs.

Points 1 and 2 are irrefutable, but despite the fact that Cousins is a dick I don't wish injury on him, I just hope he keeps sucking instead. That would serve him right.

If they get to rework Zitos contract based on what hes worth I'm down for an extension!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Cousins took out the catcher who was likely to tag him out, in a tie game in the 12th inning, and he had less than a second to decide if the ball was caught or dropped. I'm sorry if you're a homer who believes that any injury to "your team's" player is unwarranted, but Cousins did exactly what Wilile Mays did while he was playing. It's the way the game has been played for decades.

Look at the video. Buster *appeared* to have caught the ball and made *apparently* a move to tag the runner.

I would have no problem changing the rules (or enforcing existing rules, per previous posts). BUT, Cousins played the game the way it has always been played - as Willie Mays played the game.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Marco - No matter what you say, you cannot defend the two most important points that I made:

1. That Cousins led with his right shoulder and lept across the plate making initial contact with Buster's right shoulder. This was not only unnecessary, but was excessive no matter your view on the legality of a collision with the catcher.

2. Cousins did not run toward home plate and then make contact with Posey as he was about to tag the plate. Cousins left his feet 2 or 3 running steps before he had to and he launched his body toward posey with the intention of "blowing him up" - a point that he made directly after the game (but evidence of which ahs disappeared).

1) When you are in the middle of a game-deciding play, you go all out. The play won the game for his team. The whole "which shoulder" question is bullshit (IMHO). He hit the catcher with all he could when it looked like the catcher was going to tag him out. End Of Story. (My opinion, obviously).

2) Cousins DID NOT "leave his feet 2 or 3 running steps before ... ". Look at the Slo-Mo I posted from MLB.com, around 0:33-0:43. It was *his last step* when he drove into Buster. Only his last step was not on top of (within inches of) the baseline (the chalk line). I would like to hear any poster say "Yes, I watched the mlb.com video and Cousins obviously started what he was going to do 2 or 3 running steps before hitting Buster" or "launched his body toward posey" 2 or 3 steps before contact. Watch the video on mlb.com. Slo-mo around 30 seconds in.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Marco - No matter what you say, you cannot defend the two most important points that I made:

PS: "No matter what I say" and "two most important points". So you don't think that it is hugely important whether or not Cousins thought Posey had the ball and was going to tag him out? Seriously? Not important at all? More important than which shoulder hit whose? Or whether one or three steps were taken before impact? Really?

 

[MarcoPolo]

1) I would like to hear any poster say "Yes, I watched the mlb.com video and Cousins obviously started what he was going to do 2 or 3 running steps before hitting Buster" or "launched his body toward posey" 2 or 3 steps before contact.

OK, I mis-spoke (sorry, I wasn't precise enough). Cousins obviously started to lean forward about 2 steps before the plate, about the time Buster was catching the ball. It could have been for a slide or hit, But the time he DROVE forward into Buster was *the absolute last step*, after the catcher had (apparently) caught the ball and was turning toward him with the mitt to tag him. THAT was when he made the move to hit Buster - the last step.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I'm sorry if my previous posts sound a bit, um, aggressive. I guess Cam and I have history on another board which may be affecting my response. It might also be because Cam and I have diametrically opposing views on this point and we both feel strongly about it (and I know I'm right and he is wrong ). Unfortunately, the time limit for editing my responses has already expired on the previous posts, when I might have moderated my language a bit. Sorry.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I had said : but it was a 100% "legal" move.

Not by the official rules of MLB it isn't. Check the rulebook.

I've already been criticized for deciding what people might be thinking, but (since you asked) were you referring to :

The Rule 2.00 definition :

INTERFERENCE Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play.

Or were you referring to something else?

 

[CameronFrye]

I'm sorry if my previous posts sound a bit, um, aggressive. I guess Cam and I have history on another board which may be affecting my response. It might also be because Cam and I have diametrically opposing views on this point and we both feel strongly about it (and I know I'm right and he is wrong ). Unfortunately, the time limit for editing my responses has already expired on the previous posts, when I might have moderated my language a bit. Sorry.

I don't remember that at all. I don't know which board we were on or what the discussion was about that caused you to not like me. I don't remember which side I took (but it must've been the correct side). And for the record, I am not interested in remembering. I don't hold grudges.


All my comments are based on this topic, not on this topic plus a previous disagreement with you. It's OK that you allow your feelings toward other posters to affect your answers, but it obviously affects your ability to see the true facts. You have been shown to be wrong about the legality of the hit, I have proven that his hit was excessive and now you continue to argue just because you cannot accept that you are wrong.

It's OK man.

 

[the_broom]

I'm sorry if my previous posts sound a bit, um, aggressive. I guess Cam and I have history on another board which may be affecting my response. It might also be because Cam and I have diametrically opposing views on this point and we both feel strongly about it (and I know I'm right and he is wrong ). Unfortunately, the time limit for editing my responses has already expired on the previous posts, when I might have moderated my language a bit. Sorry.

Nothing wrong with having a strong opinion on a subject. I don't think you come off as an ass...so keep on throwing out the baseball talk here. If we all agreed all the time this would be a very boring board indeed!

 

[SFAnthem]

I'm sorry if my previous posts sound a bit, um, aggressive. I guess Cam and I have history on another board which may be affecting my response. It might also be because Cam and I have diametrically opposing views on this point and we both feel strongly about it (and I know I'm right and he is wrong ). Unfortunately, the time limit for editing my responses has already expired on the previous posts, when I might have moderated my language a bit. Sorry.

No apologies needed

I read a few of your posts and appreciate your input. Especially since you seem cut from the same cloth as most if us fans here. (like taking the muni to catch a day game or sprinting out into the open space behind the left field fence to grab a HR)

That play polarized this board for a few days after and until Posey's back in the starting lineup will probably continue to do so. Consider it like any other bar argument.

 

[tzill]

I had said : but it was a 100% "legal" move.



I've already been criticized for deciding what people might be thinking, but (since you asked) were you referring to :

The Rule 2.00 definition :

INTERFERENCE Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play.

Or were you referring to something else?

That's half of it; you also need to look at obstruction. Contact at the plate is one of the two and is not allowed by the official rules of baseball.