Systemic failure

[beardown07]

Our depth was shit with Lovie tho.

 

[beardown07]

Lovie's players woulda run thru a wall for him tho.


Trestman's guys seem like they wouldn't run thru a wet paper bag for him.

 

[thunderspirit]

For whatever it's worth, the Bears inquired about Eric DeCosta and were turned down. They interviewed Jason Licht (then Patriots, now Buccaneers), Jimmy Rae III (then Chargers, now Colts), and Marc Ross (Giants) during the search that hired Phil Emery.

It's certainly possible — perhaps likely — that Emery's history with the Bears (he was an area scout from 1998-2004) gave him a leg up on the others, but that's no different than you or I giving someone we already know preference over someone we don't.

 

[richig07]

For whatever it's worth, the Bears inquired about Eric DeCosta and were turned down. They interviewed Jason Licht (then Patriots, now Buccaneers), Jimmy Rae III (then Chargers, now Colts), and Marc Ross (Giants) during the search that hired Phil Emery.

It's certainly possible — perhaps likely — that Emery's history with the Bears (he was an area scout from 1998-2004) gave him a leg up on the others, but that's no different than you or I giving someone we already know preference over someone we don't.

It's pretty amazing how quick and dramatically Emery has fallen out of favor in Chicago.

It was just 3 or 4 months ago people were praising him. Wild.

 

[yutch]

It's pretty amazing how quick and dramatically Emery has fallen out of favor in Chicago.

It was just 3 or 4 months ago people were praising him. Wild.

Well, over the course of those 3 or 4 months, most of our players haven't improved, and the coaches haven't made many changes to the depth chart. Our coaches have failed to address our players' poor execution, and no one's been fired. With no changes on those fronts, and increasingly worse results on the field, Emery's next up.

For my money, it's too early to talk about firing Emery. His personnel work has been fine; he just hired a HC who hired a bad staff and who's over his head. That sort of thing you learn over time, and you've got to give your employees enough rope. The window's only opening during which it's reasonable to expect Emery to call Trestman a mistake, and to judge him on how he handles that fact.

 

[Dirk]

Lovie's players woulda run thru a wall for him tho.


Trestman's guys seem like they wouldn't run thru a wet paper bag for him.

I think part of the problem is that some of those guys who would run through a wall for lovie are still here and being counted upon to provide the veteran leadership for a guy who isn't lovie.

 

[Dirk]

It's pretty amazing how quick and dramatically Emery has fallen out of favor in Chicago.

It was just 3 or 4 months ago people were praising him. Wild.

Amazing the difference between perception and proof isn't it?

3-4 months ago we were a team on the cusp of playoff potential despite massive flaws in some aspects of the team.

Now, we're a bad team with leadership that seems intent on falling on their swords for underlings who haven't shown they deserve that kind of loyalty.

If I hear another variation of we practiced well or these things didn't happen during the week come tuesday i'm gonna fugging barf. That or go find a soundclip loop of AI...

 

[Da Coach]

So enlighten me then. If your point wasn't that you think they are passing over experienced candidates because of money, then what was it?

I supported my point. You have yet to. I contend the onus is on you to do so, not pass the buck.

 

[Da Coach]

However, it really doesn't answer my question. The question wasn't just "Who were better candidates?". It was "Who were better candidates that finances prevented the Bears from hiring?".

We have a reading comprehension issue here. I said "an argument can be made", not "it was because of", financial reasons. We will never truly know if finances were the issue. The point was that we have avoided hiring experienced front office personnel and head coaches. One could reasonably conclude that hiring those resources typically cost more money than giving someone their first shot. Asking people to go do excruciating research because you don't buy it is a load of crap.

Go do some research yourself to prove that the people the Bears hired were the right choices at the time.

Sorry, I don't find it particularly convincing.

You'll continually say this while other people do the work. I'm guessing you work for a state or local government.

 

[anotheridiot]

same 11 guys will start on defense this week that started in the two routs. Guess they convinced emery they ran into two buzz saws. Lots of people picking the vikings this week, its time they run out of excuses.

 

[yutch]

same 11 guys will start on defense this week that started in the two routs. Guess they convinced emery they ran into two buzz saws. Lots of people picking the vikings this week, its time they run out of excuses.

What would Emery have to do with setting the lineups? That'd make him a nudge beyond Jerry Angelo proportions, and Angie was King Nudge to hear former players tell it.

Emery needs to know what's going on, but his most productive role in the conversation is probably to ask questions, listen to answers, and maybe cock an eyebrow at the end and say "Funny way to make the playoffs. Which is still what I expect." None of us knows what those talks are like, but Emery does seem to like gathering information, and to respect the chain of command.

 

[brh]

We have a reading comprehension issue here. I said "an argument can be made", not "it was because of", financial reasons. We will never truly know if finances were the issue. The point was that we have avoided hiring experienced front office personnel and head coaches. One could reasonably conclude that hiring those resources typically cost more money than giving someone their first shot. Asking people to go do excruciating research because you don't buy it is a load of crap.

Excruciating research? All I've asked is that people back up their assertions. Your stance is that the Bears are deliberating avoiding hiring experienced GM's and HC's. All I've asked is that you provide some examples of this. It really shouldn't be that hard. Do you not have any realistic candidates in mind that you think they deliberately avoided? It's easy to say "They should have hired someone with experience!". But it doesn't mean anything if you can't give examples.

Go do some research yourself to prove that the people the Bears hired were the right choices at the time.

I never claimed they were the right choices. I was very skeptical of Emery right from the start. DeCosta was my first choice until it became apparent that he wasn't leaving Baltimore. After that, Marc Ross was the guy I was hoping for. I never liked the Trestman hire at all. I did think Lovie was a good hire.

So what research are you expecting? If you can point out a claim that I actually made and specify what you feel is missing to back up that claim, I'd be happy to follow up.

Look, my point isn't that the Bears organization is perfect and doing everything right. They've clearly made some poor hires at times. But that happens with all pro sports teams. What I want out of my ownership is for them to hire football people to handle the football parts of the organization, give them the financial backing they require, and then get the hell out of the way until those people have proven that they are not up to the job and should be replaced. At that point, you try again and hope you make a better hire. From where I'm sitting, it looks like that's exactly what the Bears current ownership is doing. It hasn't always been that way certainly, but for the past 10-15 years I think they've done things the right way in that regard.

 

[anotheridiot]

What would Emery have to do with setting the lineups? That'd make him a nudge beyond Jerry Angelo proportions, and Angie was King Nudge to hear former players tell it.

Emery needs to know what's going on, but his most productive role in the conversation is probably to ask questions, listen to answers, and maybe cock an eyebrow at the end and say "Funny way to make the playoffs. Which is still what I expect." None of us knows what those talks are like, but Emery does seem to like gathering information, and to respect the chain of command.

A lineup change might infer that there were conversations in house that went along the lines of what the fuck are we doing by showing we do not learn by any of the mistakes made over the past two weeks.

 

[yutch]

A lineup change might infer that there were conversations in house that went along the lines of what the fuck are we doing by showing we do not learn by any of the mistakes made over the past two weeks.

That might've been exactly how the conversation went. And it'd still be up to Trestman to make the changes necessary to meet his boss' expectations. If his idea of making those changes doesn't involve adjusting the lineup, that's his call. His rope. GMs don't set lineups.

 

[thunderspirit]

The point was that we have avoided hiring experienced front office personnel and head coaches. One could reasonably conclude that hiring those resources typically cost more money than giving someone their first shot.

It's not clear whether that's financially motivated, or a question of power within the organization, or because Grandpa Halas did it that way (which he did), or a combination of all of the above. But yes, it's absolutley true that the Bears have done that with each and every hire at least since I've been alive.

You'll continually say this while other people do the work. I'm guessing you work for a state or local government.

Hey! I work for a state government (well, a state university, anyway)!

 

[yutch]

It's not clear whether that's financially motivated, or a question of power within the organization, or because Grandpa Halas did it that way (which he did), or a combination of all of the above. But yes, it's absolutley true that the Bears have done that with each and every hire at least since I've been alive.

Not trying to guess your age or anything, but we went all-out for the best executive in football (and our last truly great GM) in 1974.

 

[thunderspirit]

Not trying to guess your age or anything, but we went all-out for the best executive in football (and our last truly great GM) in 1974.

I stand (well, sit) corrected, then: once since I've been alive.

 

[yutch]

I stand (well, sit) corrected, then: once since I've been alive.

And that guy succeeded George Halas.

When he left, he was replaced by a very good, very qualified internal hire.

And then Mikey McCaskey took over. That's when the real Anarchy, the Time of Troubles, the Reign of Terror began. We cheaped out on the very idea of a GM. When Ted Phillips re-established the position, he ended up with a guy who picked his nose on-camera at his inaugural press conference and who increasingly acted like he'd read Mikey's book waaaayyy too closely, but Phillips didn't stint on effort or money to hire the guy. And say what you will about Emery, it's not like we ignored other candidates, and it's not like we took the cheapest, easiest option there.

So everyone's right: we do have a sordid history of cheaping out on these hires, and we might still be wrestling with that history. But the way I read it, that's the legacy of one idiot man-child, not some spiritual taint on the franchise.

 

[NCChiFan]

same 11 guys will start on defense this week that started in the two routs. Guess they convinced emery they ran into two buzz saws. Lots of people picking the vikings this week, its time they run out of excuses.

Yea, but they had great practices...

 

[Wounded Bear]

I don't disagree with that list at all. However, it really doesn't answer my question. The question wasn't just "Who were better candidates?". It was "Who were better candidates that finances prevented the Bears from hiring?". Pretty much every guy on your list held a similar position as Emery did prior to being hired. So it stands to reason that their financial expectations would be similar to Emery's. Why do you believe that finances prevented the Bears from hiring someone from your list instead of Emery?

Because during that time, many lists were made regarding the top/hottest GM candidates available. Not one list had Phil Emery as a top GM candidate. As a matter of fact, no other team before or during that time even whispered Phil Emery's name as a successor of their GM position. Law of Supply and Demand would dictate that if these other candidates were more desired, then their pay would be higher.

So, BRH, show me a list of top GM candidates during the 2012 time period that include Phil Emery.

So, BRH, show me some articles dated 2012 or before showing other teams interested in Phil Emery.

So, BRH, how many other teams did Phil Emery interview with for a GM position, not just in 2012, but ever?

So, BRH, show me some articles dated 2012 or prior crediting Phil Emery as a potential GM candidate by the press or otherwise?

Please, by all means, you're up. I'd be interested to see them.

So, if you can't provide any article or lists that shows Phil Emery on any teams radar and I'll concede. Otherwise, one can reasonably assume through the law of supply and demand, so if no one else really wanted Phil Emery, then we can assume that the Bears got him at a very reasonable price. Nothing to drive up the price like the above mentioned candidates who had several teams after them.


The only positive things I've read about Phil Emery being a great GM was after his hire in 2012 when the Bears' PR Department was in high gear.

You're exaggerating. His contract extension was signed on March 1, just a few weeks after the superbowl. Hardly "the entire offseason". I do recall the media did make a stink about it though, that much is true.

Correct. Well after everyone else had signed or gave their coaches and front office a contract extension....and the reason why the media made such a stink is because the Bears front office was dragging its feet and it demonstrated the typical McCaskey tightness of funds as they have through the years.

And it's not that Lovie had success in just that year (2006), he was the NFL's Coach of the Year for 2005, so there wasn't really much to think about at that point, unless you didn't want to pay out the money. So the Bears Front Office (Ted Philips and the McCaskeys) got their ass spanked by the press and deservedly so.

Sorry, I don't find it particularly convincing.

Well sure, because you are a difficult and prideful poster who has a history of admitting when he's wrong....

Okay, fine. Now you prove your point. Just provide me a published list of top GM's for that time period that shows that Phil Emery was a top GM candidate. Because logically, most of the world operates on supply and demand. If you can show me he was a hot GM candidate, then I will understand that the Bears had to pony up some dough.

If you cannot provide any of the evidence I requested above (that he was a top GM candidate/or on other teams' radars/or any articles touting his special talents prior to 2012), then I will assume that he was a "no-name" that the Bears snagged who wouldn't command a very high salary.

The fact that Phil Emery's salary was never released is another strong indication that the Bears didn't pay him that much. There is GM salary information online, but generally only from teams who have paid out some serious cash for their services.

You may have a point here. It's pure speculation on your part, but there could be some truth to it that people view them as difficult to work with and therefore it's more difficult to get candidates. I see no evidence that it has anything to do with finances though. What other reasons do you think they're considered difficult?

I'm not interested in playing dumb here, brh. If you choose to turn a blind eye to a pattern of behavior of how GM or Head Coach candidates react to the Chicago Bears Front Office during these periods of transition, be my guest.

Once again, the Chicago Bears are one of the most storied franchises in all of sport, so you would think that candidates would be knocking down the door to become the next Chicago Bear GM or Head Coach, yet when we go through these times of transition, these candidates seem to be very fussy and irritable when dealing with the Bears Front Office (aka. Ted Phillips and the McCaskeys) and the big talent never seem to make it to the Halas Hall front doors.

Is it speculation? Sure. Very well researched speculation confirmed by a history of bad hires and years and years of failure.