Sway me one way or another

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Steroids can make bad players good; good players great; and great players greater. Bonds was a great player. The PED use took him to another level. Why is that even being disputed?

For my two cents, I go with Ted Williams, and it's not even close. He spent 3 prime seasons in WWII, and the guy then VOLUNTEERED to go to Korea in the '50's and spend another 2 years. He also was a fighter pilot. It's not like the guy was working a desk far off from the fighting. I like that character.

Some say that Bonds was the better all-around player, and he was. There is no question about that. Williams was clearly the better hitter, and had a great love for his country that superceded baseball. Bonds wouldn't lift a finger for anyone but himself, which is why his name comes up on everyone's "asshole" list on another thread.

But, for me, I want the better all-around PERSON on my team if there is a close call. Barry Bonds was a dick even before PED's, and when his balls shrunk while using, he actually became a bigger dick.

It can make bad players good? That's news to me.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

It can make bad players good? That's news to me.

As I said in a different post, ped's is not a perfect science. Like all medications or drugs, some people benefit and some don't, so you're right - if they don't have the talent to begin with, the drugs won't help. Drugs is more of a short cut imo

 

[rokketmn]

It can make bad players good? That's news to me.

Don't be so literal. You can't be that naive. The term means it takes a borderline type of major leaguer and turns him into a functional or good player. That just seemed like a lot of words to get the point across. Maybe you understand now.

Melky Cabrera?

 

[rokketmn]

It can make bad players good? That's news to me.

Ever wonder why they call them PED's?

Hint: Performance Enhancing Drugs.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Don't be so literal. You can't be that naive. The term means it takes a borderline type of major leaguer and turns him into a functional or good player. That just seemed like a lot of words to get the point across. Maybe you understand now.

Melky Cabrera?

Nope. Still don't understand, because that's simply not true. They may make a bad player into a fringe major leaguer, but they certainly don't make a bad player into a good player.

Melky Cabrera was always a serial underachiever. He was out of shape and lackadaisical. The talent was there, but the maturity and focus was not. He didn't just take PEDs and magically become better. He took PEDs and actually got himself in shape and realized he had to take his career seriously. He can be off the PEDs and still stay in good shape and remain focused and be a good player. The PEDs helped, no doubt, but more than anything, it was him realizing his career was slipping away.

Unfortunately for him, he obviously did nothing during his suspension but sit on the couch and eat twinkies, and now he's right back where he was before.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Ever wonder why they call them PED's?

Hint: Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Performance ENHANCING Drugs. Not Performance CREATING Drugs.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Performance ENHANCING Drugs. Not Performance CREATING Drugs.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Nope. Still don't understand, because that's simply not true. They may make a bad player into a fringe major leaguer, but they certainly don't make a bad player into a good player.

Melky Cabrera was always a serial underachiever. He was out of shape and lackadaisical. The talent was there, but the maturity and focus was not. He didn't just take PEDs and magically become better. He took PEDs and actually got himself in shape and realized he had to take his career seriously. He can be off the PEDs and still stay in good shape and remain focused and be a good player. The PEDs helped, no doubt, but more than anything, it was him realizing his career was slipping away.

Unfortunately for him, he obviously did nothing during his suspension but sit on the couch and eat twinkies, and now he's right back where he was before.

Question: Don't you think it's possible that there many good players that tried those things and had no success with them? Or do you think the chances of that happening is little?

Just curious

 

[rokketmn]

They may make a bad player into a fringe major leaguer, but they certainly don't make a bad player into a good player.

How can you make that statement with a straight face when you don't know who took PED's and who didn't?

You also don't know how each player was affected by use. Some may have seen little to no improvement. Others may have seen drastic improvement.

What I do agree with you on is that these are not magic beans. You don't just take them and expect to get better. These guys have to work out, eat right, and look to improve their game to get the full effects of the drugs.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Question: Don't you think it's possible that there many good players that tried those things and had no success with them? Or do you think the chances of that happening is little?

Just curious

I can't possibly answer that question with anything but speculation. I think they help different players differently. That's logical. I also believe they can be taken improperly and not help at all. And in a case like Melky Cabrera, it's not so much the use of PEDs that helped him, but him finally gaining some focus and desire to be a better player. They still helped, but he had to want it.

Similar case with Barry Bonds. I think the primary benefit he got wasn't the performance, it's that they kept him healthy and prolonged his career. His knees were terrible. He was using the cream to help rebuild his knees. Yes, he packed on lean muscle mass and became stronger, but that alone isn't what made him so great. He also re-dedicated himself to his fitness, nutrition and approach at the plate. He so badly wanted to show everyone that Sosa and McGwire couldn't hold his jock that he reinvented himself as a hitter.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

How can you make that statement with a straight face when you don't know who took PED's and who didn't?

You also don't know how each player was affected by use. Some may have seen little to no improvement. Others may have seen drastic improvement.

What I do agree with you on is that these are not magic beans. You don't just take them and expect to get better. These guys have to work out, eat right, and look to improve their game to get the full effects of the drugs.

I know plenty of players who did use and didn't gain any substantial benefit. I can't imagine PEDs helped guys like Neifi Perez, Matt Lawton and Alex Sanchez much, other than maybe helping them crack a big league roster.

 

[rokketmn]

I know plenty of players who did use and didn't gain any substantial benefit. I can't imagine PEDs helped guys like Neifi Perez, Matt Lawton and Alex Sanchez much, other than maybe helping them crack a big league roster.

YOU can't imagine it, so it must be true? If you were a scientist telling me this, that would carry some weight. The truth is you don't know. There may be some (many?) good, but not great players out there that are flying under the radar. Who knows what effects PED's could have had on each individual.

Don't forget, none of these players suspended with relationships to Biogenesis actually failed a test.

What I do know is that Melky Cabrera was essentially a .700 OPS guy before PED's. He became an .800-.900 guy while on, and lo and behold, he is back to being a .700 OPS guy again after getting busted.

 

[rokketmn]

Similar case with Barry Bonds. I think the primary benefit he got wasn't the performance, it's that they kept him healthy and prolonged his career. His knees were terrible. He was using the cream to help rebuild his knees. Yes, he packed on lean muscle mass and became stronger, but that alone isn't what made him so great. He also re-dedicated himself to his fitness, nutrition and approach at the plate. He so badly wanted to show everyone that Sosa and McGwire couldn't hold his jock that he reinvented himself as a hitter.

Just because you believe what you are saying here doesn't make it true. This may be the most sensationalistic defense of Bonds I have ever seen. It is pretty comical.

Bonds was never out of shape. He was lean and solid, and a great athlete. One could argue the knee injuries occured as a result of use, which actually is a by-product of people who use.

Take a look at Bonds pictures as he got older. Typically, men do add some pounds as we get older, but seldom do we see our heads increase in size to the magnitude of Bonds'.

Is anyone else here believing this crap?

 

[True Lakers Fan]

I can't possibly answer that question with anything but speculation. I think they help different players differently. That's logical. I also believe they can be taken improperly and not help at all. And in a case like Melky Cabrera, it's not so much the use of PEDs that helped him, but him finally gaining some focus and desire to be a better player. They still helped, but he had to want it.

Similar case with Barry Bonds. I think the primary benefit he got wasn't the performance, it's that they kept him healthy and prolonged his career. His knees were terrible. He was using the cream to help rebuild his knees. Yes, he packed on lean muscle mass and became stronger, but that alone isn't what made him so great. He also re-dedicated himself to his fitness, nutrition and approach at the plate. He so badly wanted to show everyone that Sosa and McGwire couldn't hold his jock that he reinvented himself as a hitter.

Now you hit on why it's a perfmance enhancing drug though - the drugs keeps the player healthy and stronger beyond his natural years in the MLB when he should be declining. The fact is that without those drugs, he would never have broken those records. A player, however with zero talent like what the Dodgers had for so many years -never got any benefit from ped's

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Just because you believe what you are saying here doesn't make it true. This may be the most sensationalistic defense of Bonds I have ever seen. It is pretty comical.

Bonds was never out of shape. He was lean and solid, and a great athlete. One could argue the knee injuries occured as a result of use, which actually is a by-product of people who use.

Take a look at Bonds pictures as he got older. Typically, men do add some pounds as we get older, but seldom do we see our heads increase in size to the magnitude of Bonds'.

Is anyone else here believing this crap?

NOPE

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

YOU can't imagine it, so it must be true? If you were a scientist telling me this, that would carry some weight. The truth is you don't know. There may be some (many?) good, but not great players out there that are flying under the radar. Who knows what effects PED's could have had on each individual.

Don't forget, none of these players suspended with relationships to Biogenesis actually failed a test.

What I do know is that Melky Cabrera was essentially a .700 OPS guy before PED's. He became an .800-.900 guy while on, and lo and behold, he is back to being a .700 OPS guy again after getting busted.

So you believe it's magic. Got it. Thanks.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Just because you believe what you are saying here doesn't make it true. This may be the most sensationalistic defense of Bonds I have ever seen. It is pretty comical.

Bonds was never out of shape. He was lean and solid, and a great athlete. One could argue the knee injuries occured as a result of use, which actually is a by-product of people who use.

Take a look at Bonds pictures as he got older. Typically, men do add some pounds as we get older, but seldom do we see our heads increase in size to the magnitude of Bonds'.

Is anyone else here believing this crap?

Okay...

1.) It's not a defense of Barry Bonds. Where did I defend him?
2.) When did I ever say Bonds was out of shape?
3.) He's knees began to fail him in the mid-90s.
4.) Didn't I clearly state that Bonds added mass and strength?
5.) Why do I care whether his head grew or not? I'm not disputing he used steroids. Does having a bigger head somehow make him a better home run hitter?
6.) Didn't I begin that post by clearly stating that I was doing nothing more than speculating and that I'm by no means an expert on the subject?

You're an atrocious debater. You can quit while you're behind. No one will think less of you.

 

[rokketmn]

He so badly wanted to show everyone that Sosa and McGwire couldn't hold his jock that he reinvented himself as a hitter.

Really? Bonds was already a better player than both of them regardless of the HR's, and had 2 MVP's on his resume while in Pittsburgh. He was also already a .300 hitter, something the other 2 were not. What did he have to prove exactly?

McGwire hit 49 hr's as a skinny rookie. He didn't quite get to that level again until he lost 2 years to injuries in 1993 and 1994. My theory is McGwire started using to get healthy, and it also improved his performance, as his rate stats jumped off the board starting in 1995. Then he kept using. That is just guessing on my part, of course.

Same thing with Bonds. He was a great player with Pittsburgh, but things got other-worldly when he went to San Fran in 1993. Presumably, he also met Victor Conte. His HR rates jumped way up (33%) and pretty much stayed that way.

Take a look at when the HR's started really flying out of the parks around baseball. I see it as being right around 1993, give or take a season. Is that a coincidence?

You can make assumptions that he got better as he got older. That is not out of the ordinary. What was out of the ordinary was by how much, and it was after 7 seasons.

 

[rokketmn]

He also re-dedicated himself to his fitness, nutrition

You didn't say it explicitly, but the inference is there if he had to "re-dedicate" to fitness and nutrition. That means he wasn't dedicated before.

 

[Swangin]

Now you hit on why it's a perfmance enhancing drug though - the drugs keeps the player healthy and stronger beyond his natural years in the MLB when he should be declining. The fact is that without those drugs, he would never have broken those records. A player, however with zero talent like what the Dodgers had for so many years -never got any benefit from ped's

What does this mean?

Bonds was an incredible player regardless of what he used or didn't use. No one using PEDs were even on the same planet. YES, PEDs helped Bonds reach those milestones, just like most players that have reached milestones have been helped out in some way or another. But to ignore that Bonds was as great as he was because he broke a record is silly.

I was amazed by the way Bonds tracked a ball and his approach at the plate, his swing on the ball. I didn't even have to see if it went over the fence.