Sway me one way or another

[True Lakers Fan]

I believe the legal term in the courts - is strike from the record anything that cannot be validated. Strike Bonds and his cronies from the record books all together

 

[steveringo]

I've never heard about Hank Aaron and Amphetamines, but Hank Aaron was before my time - I was younger and didn't watch baseball, but as you said - if he did, I have no problem disqualifying his numbers from the books - None at all. I am a purist

You've never heard that Hank Aaron took greenies??

Did you know players were using cocaine in the 80's??


If you created a list of clean players, you'd have a very short list...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I've never heard about Hank Aaron and Amphetamines, but Hank Aaron was before my time - I was younger and didn't watch baseball, but as you said - if he did, I have no problem disqualifying his numbers from the books - None at all. I am a purist

And before 1947, the league didn't permit all people to play the game. So there likely would have been more players in the record books, and maybe some of the current record-holders numbers wouldn't have been quite as good.

So anything before 1947 is also impure by your logic. Throw them out too. In summary, baseball was only "pure" between 1947 and some time in the 1950s when amphetamines became prevalent. The game wasn't even fully integrated until the 1959, so maybe it's never been pure.

 

[steveringo]

And before 1947, the league didn't permit all people to play the game. So there likely would have been more players in the record books, and maybe some of the current record-holders numbers wouldn't have been quite as good.

So anything before 1947 is also impure by your logic. Throw them out too. In summary, baseball was only "pure" between 1947 and some time in the 1950s when amphetamines became prevalent. The game wasn't even fully integrated until the 1959, so maybe it's never been pure.

 

[luvthemeagl1]

oh god the I thought we were done with this PEDs bs but apparently not...

but anyway I find a hard time determining which was better because of the steroid issue... Bonds when you look at their numbers is clearly superior. however, I consider Bonds a top 5 player with or without steroids, and up until age 34 he was right there with Willie Mays in fact their career numbers up to that age are remarkably similar...

so I will base my judgement off of Williams career v. Bonds age 21-34...

Bonds had 8534 PA Ted 9788, so the PA are in Teds favor but not by an incredible amount. Ted had a career 190 OPS+, to Bonds 163 to age 34... Ted had the distinct advantage in BA, OBP, SLUG... but where Bonds gets Ted is in his base running and his defense. but to me it does not make up for Williams huge edge in batting.

I gotta go with Ted in LF

 

[JR Hart]

I'd suggest you look into the definition of "fact".

I really don't care about records when evaluating the player he was for his career. Records are often a product of opportunity, and of the environment at the time that player played. They're the cherry on top, not the sundae itself.

Nothing he did from the beginning of his career through 1999 was illegitimate, and he was already in pretty rare company by that point. Then, with the help of PEDs, he took it to another level. But I have a hard time- as a logical person- believing that his performance from 1999-2007 was purely the result of PED use. He would not have hit 73 or 756, but PEDs alone can't explain his transformation as a hitter in those years. He completely re-dedicated himself to the craft of hitting. He simply wasn't willing to give in to pitchers and was willing to wait for the rare instance they gave him a pitch to hit who did his damage. He probably could have had MORE home runs had he not been so patient and disciplined. PEDs don't improve plate discipline. The change in his approach was the biggest factor in his late-career surge, and that's not historically anomalous. The PEDs gave him added strength to hit more HR, and helped keep him healthy, but otherwise, his performance is what it is.

You know smarther, we've disagreed on a lot of things over the years, but you are right on the money on Bonds. PEDSs helped, but he was a great player before that and if PEDs were so great, why didn't 50% of the league hit 60 HRs?

 

[JR Hart]

oh god the I thought we were done with this PEDs bs but apparently not...

but anyway I find a hard time determining which was better because of the steroid issue... Bonds when you look at their numbers is clearly superior. however, I consider Bonds a top 5 player with or without steroids, and up until age 34 he was right there with Willie Mays in fact their career numbers up to that age are remarkably similar...

so I will base my judgement off of Williams career v. Bonds age 21-34...

Bonds had 8534 PA Ted 9788, so the PA are in Teds favor but not by an incredible amount. Ted had a career 190 OPS+, to Bonds 163 to age 34... Ted had the distinct advantage in BA, OBP, SLUG... but where Bonds gets Ted is in his base running and his defense. but to me it does not make up for Williams huge edge in batting.

I gotta go with Ted in LF

So Bonds is ALL PEDs after age 34 and we totally disregard what he did.

 

[JR Hart]

Bonds has better numbers. Bonds was a better OF. Bonds was a better baserunner.

HMMMM....It's Bonds What's the argument.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Bonds has better numbers. Bonds was a better OF. Bonds was a better baserunner.

HMMMM....It's Bonds What's the argument.

Which numbers are those JR? If I remember correctly you are a big fan of looking at career runs+RBI per 162 games correct? That is where a lot of your Joe DiMaggio love comes from right?

Ted Williams: 257 runs+RBI/162
Barry Bonds: 229 runs+RBI/162

 

[luvthemeagl1]

So Bonds is ALL PEDs after age 34 and we totally disregard what he did.

dont get butthurt. I dont know what Bonds wouldve done without PEDs so I choose to look at the information I know to not be tainted and make a decision based on that.

 

[da55bums]

that there is an actual debate of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds...just proves, who actually knows baseball...Ted by a land slide...all those AB's missed, while serving his country...just to come back and hit like he never left...just try and guesstamate the stats the guy would have had if it wasn't for all his real job time...the years off plus the 2 he started then took off.........Bonds break was from doing cycles...unbelievable this is a debate.

 

[StanMarsh51]

that there is an actual debate of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds...just proves, who actually knows baseball...Ted by a land slide...all those AB's missed, while serving his country...just to come back and hit like he never left...just try and guesstamate the stats the guy would have had if it wasn't for all his real job time...the years off plus the 2 he started then took off.........Bonds break was from doing cycles...unbelievable this is a debate.

You mean the Korean War? It's not like took time off to play golf those 2 years.

 

[JR Hart]

that there is an actual debate of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds...just proves, who actually knows baseball...Ted by a land slide...all those AB's missed, while serving his country...just to come back and hit like he never left...just try and guesstamate the stats the guy would have had if it wasn't for all his real job time...the years off plus the 2 he started then took off.........Bonds break was from doing cycles...unbelievable this is a debate.

But Ted DIDN"T play in those war years. Without WWII. he may have been hit by a bus in Chicago in 1943. We can only go by what happened.

 

[JR Hart]

dont get butthurt. I dont know what Bonds wouldve done without PEDs so I choose to look at the information I know to not be tainted and make a decision based on that.

Back off jack@ss!

Bonds played until 2007. If roids were so great, why didn't 100 guys hit 60 homers?

 

[navamind]

Which numbers are those JR? If I remember correctly you are a big fan of looking at career runs+RBI per 162 games correct? That is where a lot of your Joe DiMaggio love comes from right?

Ted Williams: 257 runs+RBI/162
Barry Bonds: 229 runs+RBI/162

Clearly you haven't adjusted for uniforms.

 

[luvthemeagl1]

Back off jack@ss!

Bonds played until 2007. If roids were so great, why didn't 100 guys hit 60 homers?

lol so butthurt.

 

[JR Hart]

lol so butthurt.

weak


PWNED

 

[True Lakers Fan]

dont get butthurt. I dont know what Bonds wouldve done without PEDs so I choose to look at the information I know to not be tainted and make a decision based on that.

Exactly what I have been saying - there is no way in hell, you can say he would have hit any home runs without PEDS. The MLB has had some very good players that got burned by that asshole, just like they got burned by McGwire, Rodriguez, Sosa and others. Without the ped's the entire picture completely changes. The only fair thing to do is to disqualify any numbers, records and titles tainted by ped's. These guys in here, however have been sucking the ped users dicks so much, that they actually believe the rest of us should do the same

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Back off jack@ss!

Bonds played until 2007. If roids were so great, why didn't 100 guys hit 60 homers?

That's easy to explain. Most of you in here incorrectly believes the medical profession is a science, but much is experimenting and getting the right drug to work on the patient. Barry Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Rodriguez were the lucky wants that benefitted from doping, but that doesn't guarantee everyone else would or would have. I have a good friend who's son was diagnosed with cancer and given months to live. I gave her encouragement the last time I was out there and three months later the son made a complete recovery. For every person that the treatments worked, I guarantee you there was two that it failed to work and furthermore it can also cause serious medical problems down the road. Thats partly why the peds are banned - The results can be fatal or fantastic. It all depends on how the body reacts to the medicine. Another classic example, My mother had hallucinations when taking demorral for pain one time and was never able to take it again. Probably hundreds had the opposite effect

 

[rokketmn]

Bonds played until 2007. If roids were so great, why didn't 100 guys hit 60 homers?

Steroids can make bad players good; good players great; and great players greater. Bonds was a great player. The PED use took him to another level. Why is that even being disputed?

For my two cents, I go with Ted Williams, and it's not even close. He spent 3 prime seasons in WWII, and the guy then VOLUNTEERED to go to Korea in the '50's and spend another 2 years. He also was a fighter pilot. It's not like the guy was working a desk far off from the fighting. I like that character.

Some say that Bonds was the better all-around player, and he was. There is no question about that. Williams was clearly the better hitter, and had a great love for his country that superceded baseball. Bonds wouldn't lift a finger for anyone but himself, which is why his name comes up on everyone's "asshole" list on another thread.

But, for me, I want the better all-around PERSON on my team if there is a close call. Barry Bonds was a dick even before PED's, and when his balls shrunk while using, he actually became a bigger dick.