Steve Nash's injuries

[besaesa]

I just want to add that this is a product of him leaving the Suns terrific training staff. It's remarkable how healthy they kept him in his last couple seasons in PHX.

Sting you guys have always had a top notch training staff. I dont knock you for that. Nash wanted a shot at a ring and things just didnt work out in la

 

[GMATCa]

I agree with much of this, but disagree that Mitch misread anything. The "injuries" that Nash was dealing with at the time of the trade were injuries Nash had been dealing with for years and had always managed to have few issues getting through and playing at a high level, including in 2011.

The issue is the "new injury" which was the broken leg which was kind of freak injury and apparently has resulted in some nerve damage. That's bad luck, not a misread by Mitch. Nash didn't get a chance to let it heal completely last season because the Lakers suffered many other injuries on top of his and Nash felt obligated to rush back as soon as possible.

Artest was the right choice to amnesty, imo because D'Antoni's offense just doesn't fit Artests style of play. At the least, with Nash, we have only guy who knows D'Antoni's offense as well as D'Antoni and he can and is teaching the Lakers guards like Farmar who has already been showing some moves that are "vintage Steve Nash"!!

My point about Kupchak's misreading possessed absolutely nothing to do with Nash's injuries. Even if Nash had not fractured his leg early last season, I still think that the general manager misread how best to reduce Kobe Bryant's burden and improve the team. Injuries or not, Nash and Bryant did not gel naturally because both are accustomed to dominating the ball. And when push came to shove, the guy who was going to need to sacrifice would be the thirty-nine-year old newcomer, not the thirty-four-year old ace scorer who had won five championships with the franchise and remained an elite player. Bryant wasn't accustomed to finding his rhythm off the basketball as the non-dominant guard, and thus Bryant was still going to take control of the offense. Therefore, instead of Nash reducing Kobe's offensive burden, as seemingly everyone imagined, Nash was destined to become a sort of enhanced Steve Blake. Attempting to conserve Bryant's energy by importing an older, non-explosive, ball-controlling guard was not going to work, as Kobe was not about to become a bystander for a less aggressive guard who could not place as much pressure on the defense as he could.

Moreover, Nash was bound to not run the Lakers' offense as exquisitely and efficiently as he'd run the Suns' offense, for he was now joining a team that started and gave major minutes to a pair of true big men, neither of whom shot threes or possessed a natural shooting range beyond nineteen feet (this situation was true even before trading Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard). Thus the court was not going to be spaced as widely for Nash, the Lakers would not possess a great edge in transition, and opposing defenses could more easily help and help-and-recover on his pick-and-rolls. In other words, the Lakers did not possess the personnel needed to activate the so-called "Nash effect," making Kobe Bryant even more likely to become restless in that system and take the reins himself. (I actually wrote about this matter extensively last Christmas on another site; I received some push back from a couple Laker fans, but I think that I proved correct.)

Instead, the way to reduce Bryant's burden would have been to save his legs on defense by acquiring an all-purpose defensive guard (with enough ball-handling and offensive skill to start) who could hound opponents. By signing Nash, Bryant instead needed to work even harder on defense while still dominating the offense.

I thus feel that Kupchak misread matters conceptually; Nash's injury last fall merely exacerbated the situation.

To be sure, I came to this conclusion in retrospect, by last March. But then, I'm not paid a hefty salary to analyze the Lakers, either.

 

[GMATCa]

Just for the sake of it, I'll post some of what I wrote on Christmas morning last year, just after Nash has returned in the game at Golden State:

Well, Bryant shot 16-41 from the field last night. Indeed, Kobe is more of a "stand alone" player whose style and statistics are unlikely to be significantly affected by whoever he's playing with. Heck, he never even shot .470 from the field when he was playing with Shaquille O'Neal

... Second, the apparent dominance of the "roll man" is created not simply by Nash, but the combination of Nash, the system, the personnel, and the spacing that results. Since Phoenix typically surrounded the Nash-Stoudemire (or later Nash-Gortat) pick-and-roll with three perimeter players or three-point shooters, the middle was open, the defense proved unwilling to help for fear of being burned (sometimes, the defense just couldn't help successfully even when it tried because there was so much space to cover and the help defense couldn't get there in time), and the "roll man" could enjoy all kinds of prime opportunities resulting from switches or two-on-one situations. The Lakers, however, are not going to surround the pick-and-roll with three perimeter players or three-point shooters, at least not when they're playing their starting lineup. Relative to the Suns' offense (or to many offenses around the league nowadays), the Lakers are not going to feature as much court spacing, thus enticing and enabling defenders to collapse to the "roll man" more often. Here's what Jeff Van Gundy stated in November on ESPN Radio:

But a lot of pick-and-roll basketball, guys, is dependent on how the other three guys can space the floor. Remember in Phoenix, Nash was always playing with great perimeter shooting to open up the roll man. So it didn't matter if it was Stoudemire rollin' or Marcin Gortat rollin', the lane was open because of the great three-point shooting. Right now, the Lakers—they're not a great shooting team. They play a big four man, Gasol, so his man's gonna clog the lane. Artest is a little bit erratic as a three-point shooter, so his man will be in the lane. And so too will Kobe Bryant's man. And then off the bench, they don't really have that shooter—other than Jodie Meeks—that's really gonna spread the floor. So the pick-and-roll game is even tougher because of the roster composition.

Jeff Van Gundy, NBA - ESPN

Due to presence of the modern defensive three seconds rule and the fact that Pau Gasol can certainly step out and hit a nineteen-foot jumper, I don't think that the Lakers' offensive situation is as dire as Van Gundy suggests. That said, he offers the salient point that the pick-and-roll's dynamics and the quandaries that it creates for the defense are largely determined by spacing, and that the Lakers' spacing usually will not be as wide and deep as Nash and the "roll man" enjoyed in Phoenix. The Lakers can still be effective on that play, but just because Nash is now in Los Angeles doesn't mean that there's going to be a carbon copy of what occurred in Phoenix, even with D'Antoni as coach. For again, the spacing and three-point threats will be comparatively diminished for LA and defenses will hence feel emboldened to help on the "roll man" more so than was the case against Nash's Suns. Of course, the bet is that with superior talent, the Lakers don't need the "perfect" pick-and-roll game that existed in Phoenix, just a more effective one than they featured last year.

Finally, but similarly, the video notes how effective Nash happened to be as an isolation player, but surely, one of the reasons for that efficiency was because so many (perhaps most) of Nash's one-on-one scoring attempts came after the defense switched on the pick-and-roll, leaving Nash against a big man who couldn't stay with him off the dribble or who wouldn't guard him outside. But if the court isn't spaced as widely, the defense will feel less inclined to make disadvantageous switches that result in glaring mismatches, instead choosing to send a third defender to the play, to help and recover. Back when Nash entered the NBA, for example, defenses rarely switched on the pick-and-roll because there was usually little need to do so: there wasn't as much court spacing or as many three-point shooters on the floor and the league had yet to revamp its defensive three seconds rule. Thus defenses could protect the paint more easily and with less fear of being burned from outside.

The game has changed plenty since that time (to the benefit of the pick-and-roll, both the ball-handler and the "roll man"), and Nash will still be able to take advantage of some of those changes as a Laker. But because LA features more of a conventional starting lineup or primary lineup, Nash and the "roll man" won't be able to maximize those advantages to the same extent as in Phoenix. There surely won't be as many two-on-one situations without help, and there surely won't be as many one-on-one plays resulting from switches.

 

[GMATCa]

They couldn't use the amnesty on Nash. He wasn't on the team prior to the new CBA. No doubt they overspent on him though!

... ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[trojanfan12]

My point about Kupchak's misreading possessed absolutely nothing to do with Nash's injuries. Even if Nash had not fractured his leg early last season, I still think that the general manager misread how best to reduce Kobe Bryant's burden and improve the team. Injuries or not, Nash and Bryant did not gel naturally because both are accustomed to dominating the ball. And when push came to shove, the guy who was going to need to sacrifice would be the thirty-nine-year old newcomer, not the thirty-four-year old ace scorer who had won five championships with the franchise and remained an elite player. Bryant wasn't accustomed to finding his rhythm off the basketball as the non-dominant guard, and thus Bryant was still going to take control of the offense. Therefore, instead of Nash reducing Kobe's offensive burden, as seemingly everyone imagined, Nash was destined to become a sort of enhanced Steve Blake. Attempting to conserve Bryant's energy by importing an older, non-explosive, ball-controlling guard was not going to work, as Kobe was not about to become a bystander for a less aggressive guard who could not place as much pressure on the defense as he could.

Moreover, Nash was bound to not run the Lakers' offense as exquisitely and efficiently as he'd run the Suns' offense, for he was now joining a team that started and gave major minutes to a pair of true big men, neither of whom shot threes or possessed a natural shooting range beyond nineteen feet (this situation was true even before trading Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard). Thus the court was not going to be spaced as widely for Nash, the Lakers would not possess a great edge in transition, and opposing defenses could more easily help and help-and-recover on his pick-and-rolls. In other words, the Lakers did not possess the personnel needed to activate the so-called "Nash effect," making Kobe Bryant even more likely to become restless in that system and take the reins himself. (I actually wrote about this matter extensively last Christmas on another site; I received some push back from a couple Laker fans, but I think that I proved correct.)

Instead, the way to reduce Bryant's burden would have been to save his legs on defense by acquiring an all-purpose defensive guard (with enough ball-handling and offensive skill to start) who could hound opponents. By signing Nash, Bryant instead needed to work even harder on defense while still dominating the offense.

I thus feel that Kupchak misread matters conceptually; Nash's injury last fall merely exacerbated the situation.

To be sure, I came to this conclusion in retrospect, by last March. But then, I'm not paid a hefty salary to analyze the Lakers, either.

Good points. I still tend to disagree re: the misread though because Kobe was "on board" with Nash distributing the ball. Kobe is many things, but stupid isn't one of them. He knew that a point guard with Nash's ability and basketball i.q. would result in better shots for himself and the rest of the team.

It was after Nash got hurt and struggled in coming back from the injury that caused to Kobe to come in and start dominating the ball.

I think there were 2 main problems re: Nash and Kobe's ability to gel. The first was the offense that was installed under Mike Brown. Brown should have scrapped his plans to run the Princeton offense the second that Nash was signed. Like the Triangle, the Princeton is not a "point guard friendly" offense. Because Mike Brown wasn't bright enough to figure this out, Nash was often left roaming the perimeter and being a "spot-up" shooter.

When Brown was fired and D'Antoni came in, Nash was expected to help shorten the learning curve so that the Lakers could quickly adapt to D'Antoni's system. Unfortunately, this was right about the time that Nash got hurt. I've said all along that I would have liked to see last years team healthy and running D'Antoni's system from Day 1. Unfortunately, it just didn't work out that way.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

Just retire you pretty much admitting your finished, you shouldn't even be playing if you cant anymore

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbM9b6hCzeA]Lakers Practice: Steve Nash Says He's Slowly Getting Worse And Worse, Not Worth Being Out There - YouTube[/ame]

 

[trojanfan12]

Just retire you pretty much admitting your finished, you shouldn't even be playing if you cant anymore

Lakers Practice: Steve Nash Says He's Slowly Getting Worse And Worse, Not Worth Being Out There - YouTube

I feel bad for Nash. He's been such a great player and he had such high hopes when he came to the Lakers. Sucks to see him going through all of this.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

I feel bad for Nash. He's been such a great player and he had such high hopes when he came to the Lakers. Sucks to see him going through all of this.

Nash was great and now he's old, so he's not great anymore. The new thing in the NBA is to keep playing way past your prime and continue to get paid for being the player you were before.

 

[lakersrule]

Nash is out for a couple weeks. Getting another epidural. I think we've seen the last of him. Hopefully he retires and takes his salary off the books for next season. Crazy what a freak injury can do to someone.

 

[trojanfan12]

Nash was great and now he's old, so he's not great anymore. The new thing in the NBA is to keep playing way past your prime and continue to get paid for being the player you were before.

The problem for Nash is that it happened "all of the sudden". In 2011 he played at pretty much the same level that he always had, then last year he breaks his leg in a freak injury and just can't healthy. Outside of a crystal ball, no one could have predicted this.

 

[Retroram52]

The nerve damage to his broken leg is causing problems and because of age, it is not healing. He may have to retire because with nerve damage, the time healing is excessively longer than a simple broken bone. This may be Nash's undoing as he can not keep up with younger players with this type of injury.

 

[trojanfan12]

The nerve damage to his broken leg is causing problems and because of age, it is not healing. He may have to retire because with nerve damage, the time healing is excessively longer than a simple broken bone. This may be Nash's undoing as he can not keep up with younger players with this type of injury.

Yeah, unfortunately you are likely right. I hate to see it. Nash is one of my all-time favorite players and I was much more excited about the Lakers getting him than Dwight!!

Gonna hold out hope that he can get through this, but I'm not going to hold my breath!!

 

[lakersrule]

Yeah, unfortunately you are likely right. I hate to see it. Nash is one of my all-time favorite players and I was much more excited about the Lakers getting him than Dwight!!

Gonna hold out hope that he can get through this, but I'm not going to hold my breath!!

It took four months or so this summer for Nash to get that nerve pain under control. I don't see a couple of weeks helping much. Don't see Toronto making a trade for him anymore. Time to retire Nashty.

 

[JahiiCarson_SqodGeneral]

Nash was still good his last year in Phoenix. I still dont know why you guys traded for him though when Lowry, Dragic, and Felton were available in free agency would of given you more speed and a healthier point guard. But Nash was better at the time. You guys definitely had a great roster. You really just need an athletic SF that season instead of Metta. And a faster point guard and you might of been playing for the championship.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

It took four months or so this summer for Nash to get that nerve pain under control. I don't see a couple of weeks helping much. Don't see Toronto making a trade for him anymore. Time to retire Nashty.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jbtwQgqH5U]New Edition - Is This The End - YouTube[/ame]

 

[lakersrule]

I would go with this one.....

 

[Retroram52]

There is some articles afloat that are indicating that the damage in his leg is going to require extensive rest and some potential rehab. If he does not do this, he runs the risk of losing some feeling in the lower portion of that leg and foot and when that happens, then his ability to run will be seriously hampered. Not trying to be a debbie downer bitch here but I have worked with sports injuries before and it is just the state of things.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

There is some articles afloat that are indicating that the damage in his leg is going to require extensive rest and some potential rehab. If he does not do this, he runs the risk of losing some feeling in the lower portion of that leg and foot and when that happens, then his ability to run will be seriously hampered. Not trying to be a debbie downer bitch here but I have worked with sports injuries before and it is just the state of things.

Nash's leg

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

Looks like Nash could play in about a week....damn i want him to retire

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

Steve Nash of Los Angeles Lakers not retiring, vows return from injury - ESPN Los Angeles