Should Jack Z keep his job for another year?

[seahawksfan234]

IDK, I know it's easy to look at the Figgins contract now that its run its course and say that it was a horrible signing, but I actually liked the deal when it was first made. He was a career .290 slap hitter who stole bases. I thought that he was the kind of player who had success in Seattle. Now, he fell off badly, but I didn't expect that by his second season that he'd only be hitting in the .180s when the contract was signed. Besides, it isn't like Jack had been given extra money to spend, actually they slashed the budget that offseason (from some $100 million to around $85 million).

As for the question at hand, I just am not sure who you bring in with this teams budget who can make it work any better. I know that there are teams with smaller budgets, but the team has a lot of their budget tied up already, so it's not as much as it seems. The problem with this team isn't that Jack hasn't built up the minor system (like was his promise when he came in), it's that those hitters having success in the minors aren't coming up and having any success with the M's. I don't know exactly why players aren't being fully developed, but there has to be something that is just wrong with the situation.

As a side note, I was surprised to see that Figgins is still in the MLB.

Haven't seen ya post in a while blstoker. Good to see you back

 

[gohusk]

You realize Pat Gillick absolutely ruined the farm system with his win now mantra, which we got to the playoffs 2 years he was GM. Then it got even worse with Bavasi. That being said I truly believe Zduriencik has done a decent job trying to fix the farm system. But on the big league level he has really hit and missed on a few players.

This is something that what was reported earlier last year as kind of a role your eyes piece:

Eric Wedge blames sabermetrics for Dustin Ackley?s struggles | HardballTalk

Taken by itself it's nothing, but throw in that hatchet job about our FO it kind of makes you wonder. I doubt Ackley was going stats crazy when looking at his performance. But the FO, because they're absolutely clueless, might have been looking at his numbers and started to have the coaching staff pump a bunch of crap into his head that he didn't need to hear. These stats were never intended to be used in figuring out how to coach a guy. It's how to evaluate a guy's overall performance. The coaches need to stick to the swing mechanics and let a guy be the player he's capable of being. If it ends up being average then so be it, which is what Ackley was looking like at one point. Instead we have hot garbage right now in a guy who has absolutely no confidence.

 

[PolarVortex]

This might be a bit early for this question, but I think it is a really interesting question to discuss.

Hypothetically speaking, say the Mariners finish the season with their current winning percentage (Which would place them at around 87-75). Should Jack Zduriencik keep his job?

I think this question is interesting because it is pretty much the consensus that Zduriencik has had a mediocre tenure as Mariners general manager, and aside from adding Robinson Cano and Chris Young, has not done a ton to improve the roster. BUT, if the team continues at its current pace, it would be a significant improvement from last year and would be the team's 2nd best finish since 2003. Therefore, it wouldn't be fair to terminate his position since the team is looking up, despite his numerous bad decisions as Mariners GM.

What do you think? Say the Mariners finish 87-75 at the end of the year, should Zduriencik keep his job?

NO. Let him go. Is there a better than 50% chance that the next guy will not be any better? Yes. But considering Z's track record, the Ms still have to try to find a better one. Jack has been here - what? Six years now? That's long enough.

And I don't excuse his lack of success because of payroll constrictions. There have been plenty of successful GMs who had to build a team with less money.

 

[SeattleCoug]

gillick traded away the farm for nothing with the m's. after assembling a billy beane group of guys in 2001, he systematically began destroying the farm.

it took nearly 15 years with the blue jays to be perennially successful. and when he took over the phillies, they were already near the top of their division the past couple of years. the infrastructure was there, and they were lucky they canned in him in 08 and stayed at the top of their division for a couple more years before he had a chance to destroy them.

Yep and dont forget that Orioles team that took down the M's in 1997. Acquired veterans like Robbie Alomar, Harold Baines, Eric Davis, Scott Erickson, etc. and ditched the team the next year. They didnt see 80 wins until 2012. Teams consistently have gone in the toilet after he left.

 

[blstoker]

Haven't seen ya post in a while blstoker. Good to see you back

Computer crashed, burned and died and it took a while to get another one.

 

[mcnabb7542]

What do you think? Say the Mariners finish 87-75 at the end of the year, should Zduriencik keep his job?

I don't know ?? It's a tough case for the simple fact that is there another potential younger GM type out there that can build through the draft and work with peanuts as contract will need to be kept in check?

I don't see a farm system that well stocked, I mean the outfield position isn't that deep for guys ready to move up to the bigs. No 1st base men, questions at SS, granted pitching is some what there if health is taken out of the equation

 

[NWinAZ]

Computer crashed, burned and died and it took a while to get another one.

Same thing happened to me and t took me over a week to replace it. I was reading comments on my tablet, but I can't type on that darn thing so I couldn't comment myself. It was killing me...lol.

 

[NWinAZ]

Yep and dont forget that Orioles team that took down the M's in 1997. Acquired veterans like Robbie Alomar, Harold Baines, Eric Davis, Scott Erickson, etc. and ditched the team the next year. They didnt see 80 wins until 2012. Teams consistently have gone in the toilet after he left.

I still say it is better to have a couple runs at the championship even if it sacrifices the future like people say Gillick did because you are never guaranteed the future in the first place. Who can say that all those teams wouldn't have hit the dumps anyways? A guy wins a ring with 3 different teams, I will take that all day long. Bavasi won nothing and still left the team in the dumps for a decade.

If the Hawks had gone all in for last years ring and it would have cost them the next decade, I would still be smiling all decade.

 

[octagondd]

It is so hard to say with Jack. It is hard to know how much control he has. It is hard to know if he was supposed to just focus on rebuilding the farm which is what his previous experience was. It is tough to know who pulled the trigger on Figgins and others. Hard to say if that lower level scout he brought from Milwaukee was telling the truth about him not knowing anything or if he was just bitter for getting canned. Z has had some pretty terrible luck as well with Guti and Halman and injuries to prospects. He has hit on some older rehab projects like Branyon, and Young, but missed on many more. He has missed on top prospects but had decent luck with other prospects.

Personally, I am over him. I think he has done a decent job of rebuilding the farm, but his mlb level work has been pretty bad. I know it takes quite a bit of time to develop a farm system from the ground up, but the misses on top prospects bugs me. I know most prospects don't make it, but Ackley just bugs me, especially now that he is a corner OFer. His value was at 2nd. He is not a corner OFer.

Based on how this ownership group and management have acted for the last 15 years, I wouldn't fault Jack for everything, but I still think he may not have what it takes to do the job at the mlb level. And I have given him a lot of rope. He is down to the last thread for me now.

 

[blstoker]

Same thing happened to me and t took me over a week to replace it. I was reading comments on my tablet, but I can't type on that darn thing so I couldn't comment myself. It was killing me...lol.

Well, I tried to fix it first, so it was a good month and a half. I also was keeping an eye with the tablet, but even with the blue tooth keyboard it was just too much a hassle to deal with (would make me start over anytime I went to a new tab to do any research).

As far a Z goes, I am definitely more forgiving than most on this board, but even I am thinking it's time to move on. Even if there is a winning record, its become pretty evident that even with his scouting background that there really aren't many development guys who are coming up and performing.

 

[NWinAZ]

Well, I tried to fix it first, so it was a good month and a half. I also was keeping an eye with the tablet, but even with the blue tooth keyboard it was just too much a hassle to deal with (would make me start over anytime I went to a new tab to do any research).

My story exactly. Glad you are back.

 

[wazzu31]

*Cough* Pat Gillick *cough*...

Pat Gillick took a gold mine that Woody built and he turned it into a pile of shit. That has always been his MO, he goes to a club on the verge, goes in, get credit for someone else's work, then leaves that organization in the gutter. Refused to do anything with the farm system and ran Lou out of town.

Brilliant dude but I would put Woody miles ahead of him.

 

[wazzu31]

I still say it is better to have a couple runs at the championship even if it sacrifices the future like people say Gillick did because you are never guaranteed the future in the first place. Who can say that all those teams wouldn't have hit the dumps anyways? A guy wins a ring with 3 different teams, I will take that all day long. Bavasi won nothing and still left the team in the dumps for a decade.

If the Hawks had gone all in for last years ring and it would have cost them the next decade, I would still be smiling all decade.

The problem is that Pat never went all in. He wasn't hampered by Howard and Chuck. Had he gone in he would've traded for that LF like Lou wanted which lead to Lou saying f you and I'm out. His legacy is nothing in Seattle, didn't win a WS, didn't build a contender, didn't do a single thing to help the organization besides inject Boone with roids.

 

[NWinAZ]

The problem is that Pat never went all in. He wasn't hampered by Howard and Chuck. Had he gone in he would've traded for that LF like Lou wanted which lead to Lou saying f you and I'm out. His legacy is nothing in Seattle, didn't win a WS, didn't build a contender, didn't do a single thing to help the organization besides inject Boone with roids.

Armstrong came back in 1993 and Lincoln came in in 2000. They kept Armstrong from getting the LF Lou wanted and not Armstrong. It was Lincoln who said in the paper at the time that it wasn't his job to win championships, but to make the owners money.

 

[NWinAZ]

Here is the actual quote from Lincoln via a book written by Jon Wells:

Wells goes through the bad trades, the budget-cutting, and the day ceiling tiles fell off the old Kingdome. Much of his fire is aimed at Howard Lincoln, the team’s long-time chairman and CEO. I can’t imagine Lincoln is going to be very happy at some old quotes that Wells resurrects. Like, “The goal of the Mariners is not to win the World Series … We absolutely have to make money … We will not do a deal just so we can say to fans or players, ‘Look at us, we did a deal.’ This is not the way I operate a business.”

 

[wazzu31]

Here is the actual quote from Lincoln via a book written by Jon Wells:

Wells goes through the bad trades, the budget-cutting, and the day ceiling tiles fell off the old Kingdome. Much of his fire is aimed at Howard Lincoln, the team’s long-time chairman and CEO. I can’t imagine Lincoln is going to be very happy at some old quotes that Wells resurrects. Like, “The goal of the Mariners is not to win the World Series … We absolutely have to make money … We will not do a deal just so we can say to fans or players, ‘Look at us, we did a deal.’ This is not the way I operate a business.”

I realize that and that is why I have always quoted what Lincoln and Armstrong would say their business model was, 90/90/3. Which was a 90 million dollar payroll, gets you 90 wins and can draw 3 million fans. Gillick was still not hampered with his dealings like Jack has.

Gillick had full control of player personal moves. Lou begged him to and Pat refused. Pat would come to Tacoma at least twice a month and talk with all the boys, and he was laughed at. I was personally there when him and Dan Rohn got in a huge pissing match because the Rainiers and Mariners were so good and Dan asked why he refused to deal any of his boys especially his pitchers.

I will admit I hate Pat Gillick as a person so that is why I have a huge bias against him and would never put him above Woody as the top Mariners GM of all time.

 

[NWinAZ]

Gillick had full control of player personal moves, but not payroll just like Jack.

Wasn't it the beloved Woody who traded Lowe and Varitek for Slocumb? And Cruz Jr. for 2 relievers? Not a Woody fan.

 

[wazzu31]

Gillick had full control of player personal moves, but not payroll just like Jack.

Wasn't it the beloved Woody who traded Lowe and Varitek for Slocumb? And Cruz Jr. for 2 relievers? Not a Woody fan.

Well I will have to completely agree to disagree with the payroll. I fully believe Woody, Pat and Bavasi had control of payroll.

But Woody went for it trying to get to a WS. Pat didn't not even though he had the top pitching prospect in baseball. Which brings me, to outside of Ichiro what was one thing Pat did to leave the organization anything more than a gutter turd?

 

[NWinAZ]

The last and greatest year we have ever had and the last time we have even sniffed the playoffs. He did that while being forced to trade our superstar to one team and one team only. I think he did alright with that.

 

[cezero]

Here is the actual quote from Lincoln via a book written by Jon Wells:

Wells goes through the bad trades, the budget-cutting, and the day ceiling tiles fell off the old Kingdome. Much of his fire is aimed at Howard Lincoln, the team’s long-time chairman and CEO. I can’t imagine Lincoln is going to be very happy at some old quotes that Wells resurrects. Like, “The goal of the Mariners is not to win the World Series … We absolutely have to make money … We will not do a deal just so we can say to fans or players, ‘Look at us, we did a deal.’ This is not the way I operate a business.”

Yeah, I think most of us understand the priorities of the FO and Ownership.

I'm not a Z fan by any means, but a new GM will have maybe a 3% impact on the team given the absolute indifference about winning explicitly stated by the FO.