Sabres trade Vanek to Islanders.

[IPostedWhat]

I can barely believe I'm saying this but I think Darcy actually got the better of the deal.

He usually does.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

deadline is way before that, but that aside I still think they gave up too much for Vanek.

I can barely believe i'm saying this but I think Darcy actually got the better of thr deal. The fact that the Isles didn't part with any of the prospects you mention doesnt change that.

Both players involved are going to be UFA's. If the Isles find a way to sign Vanek it's a good deal for them. The only way I see this deal as a loss for the Isles is if they fail to resign Vanek & are one & done come playoff time or miss the playoffs entirely. Even then the 1st round pick in 2014 is top 10 protected. Garth got a game breaker in Vanek without having to give up any of his top prospects. All he gave up was a player he wasn't going to resign & 2 maybe's.

One thing to keep in mind is the draft is a crapshoot. Considering the Isles prospect pool I think it's worth the risk/reward. They weren't going to resign Moulson anyway.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

He usually does.

Darcy always seems to get good value in trades on paper. I honestly thought he robbed Milbury for Peca a long time ago. As it turns out that deal didn't workout so well for Buffalo. We'll have to wait & see what becomes of the 1st & 2nd round pick he got.

 

[DevilishWon]

Both players involved are going to be UFA's. If the Isles find a way to sign Vanek it's a good deal for them. The only way I see this deal as a loss for the Isles is if they fail to resign Vanek & are one & done come playoff time or miss the playoffs entirely. Even then the 1st round pick in 2014 is top 10 protected. Garth got a game breaker in Vanek without having to give up any of his top prospects. All he gave up was a player he wasn't going to resign & 2 maybe's.

One thing to keep in mind is the draft is a crapshoot. Considering the Isles prospect pool I think it's worth the risk/reward. They weren't going to resign Moulson anyway.

Guess we'll have top agree to disagree, I think Garth got "took".

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Guess we'll have top agree to disagree, I think Garth got "took".

How so? All he gave up was 1st & 2nd round picks in different years for a franshise player? We don't even know where the picks are going to be yet. If the 1st round pick is in the 15 to 30 range who cares. 2nd round picks are an even bigger crapshoot. Heck the 2014 1st round pick is even top 10 protected. I'm not saying Regier didn't get good value because he did. What I'm saying is Snow didn't get taken in the deal. Especially if Vanek resigns.

I think maybe we look at it a bit differently. I'm sure Regier would rather have Strome, Reinhart or Pulock than that 1st round pick. I know I would. The fact Garth didn't have to give up a single prospect in the deal is huge.

 

[DevilishWon]

How so? All he gave up was 1st & 2nd round picks in different years for a franshise player? We don't even know where the picks are going to be yet. If the 1st round pick is in the 15 to 30 range who cares. 2nd round picks are an even bigger crapshoot. Heck the 2014 1st round pick is even top 10 protected. I'm not saying Regier didn't get good value because he did. What I'm saying is Snow didn't get taken in the deal. Especially if Vanek resigns.

I think maybe we look at it a bit differently. I'm sure Regier would rather have Strome, Reinhart or Pulock than that 1st round pick. I know I would. The fact Garth didn't have to give up a single prospect in the deal is huge.

How so is he gave up 2 high draft picks for a slight upgrade. Calling Vanek a franchise player at this point is a stretch. For the last 4 or 5 years he and Moulson have been equivalent.

We do look at things differently. You keep bringing up the prospects that were not included in the deal (basically saying I'm glad we didn't give up more/it could have been worse). I look at what actually was traded and say the Isles gave up more than they got.

If Vanek returns to being the player he was earlier in his career or Moulson craters I will be wrong, but I don't see either of those things happening.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

How so is he gave up 2 high draft picks for a slight upgrade. Calling Vanek a franchise player at this point is a stretch. For the last 4 or 5 years he and Moulson have been equivalent.

We do look at things differently. You keep bringing up the prospects that were not included in the deal (basically saying I'm glad we didn't give up more/it could have been worse). I look at what actually was traded and say the Isles gave up more than they got.

If Vanek returns to being the player he was earlier in his career or Moulson craters I will be wrong, but I don't see either of those things happening.

I'd say 20G 21A in 38 games last year on a team in which he was basically he only offensive threat is quite impressive. We'll see if Vanek & Tavares can build some chemistry. I don't think it matters what Moulson does. Moulson wasn't going to be resigned by the Isles & Buffalo is going to probably trade him anyway. You're making to big a deal about the draft picks. Especially the 2nd round pick. The draft is a crapshoot. We don't even know where the picks are going to be yet. By what you're saying Lou made a big mistake giving up a top 10 pick for Schneider. It can certainly be argued that he did. Bernier was traded for much less.

 

[IPostedWhat]

You're making to big a deal about the draft picks. Especially the 2nd round pick. The draft is a crapshoot.

True, but the Sabres have more draft picks they can bundle and use now to get another 1st round pick if they want to.

No team ever complained they have too many draft picks.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

True, but the Sabres have more draft picks they can bundle and use now to get another 1st round pick if they want to.

No team ever complained they have too many draft picks.

That's nice for them. To be honest I'd rather be in the Anaheim Ducks position than the Sabres. They have two 1st round picks. 3 possible starting goalies plus a stud goalie prospect in their system. They're stacked with young forwards to go with 2 superstars. They also have 3 talented young defenseman in Fowler, Vatanen & Lindholm. Yet for some reason they're under the radar.

I completely understand what the Sabres are doing. They obviously feel they simply can't win right now. The Ducks on the other hand are winning right now & have an even brighter future.

As for my team if they aren't in contention for a playoff spot as the deadline nears they can trade Vanek if he decides not to resign & recoup at the very least some of what they gave up. They can also keep their 1st round pick in 2014 if it's in the top 10.

 

[IPostedWhat]

That's nice for them. To be honest I'd rather be in the Anaheim Ducks position than the Sabres. They have two 1st round picks. 3 possible starting goalies plus a stud goalie prospect in their system. They're stacked with young forwards to go with 2 superstars. They also have 3 talented young defenseman in Fowler, Vatanen & Lindholm. Yet for some reason they're under the radar.

And I'd rather be in at least 20 other team's positions right now, but it is what it is.

Sabres have 2 1st Round picks, as well as 2 solid goalies with solid goalie prospects. The Sabres have never been hurting when it comes to goalies. The Sabres also have some promising forwards and defensemen, but they need time to develop.

Sabres are losing right now, yes, but they aren't getting destroyed or blown out, and a lot of their Rookies and young players are looking pretty good right now.

Only time will tell.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

And I'd rather be in at least 20 other team's positions right now, but it is what it is.

Sabres have 2 1st Round picks, as well as 2 solid goalies with solid goalie prospects. The Sabres have never been hurting when it comes to goalies. The Sabres also have some promising forwards and defensemen, but they need time to develop.

Sabres are losing right now, yes, but they aren't getting destroyed or blown out, and a lot of their Rookies and young players are looking pretty good right now.

Only time will tell.

The only reason the Sabres aren't getting blown out by teams right now is Miller. He made 44 saves last night against the Rangers. Hopefully the young guys will learn & get better from this experience. I'm honestly surprised Darcy Regier allowed things to get this bad, especially after a new owner came in with big money. I've always thought he was a good talent evaluator. The Leino & Ehrhoff signings were brutal.

 

[IPostedWhat]

I'm honestly surprised Darcy Regier allowed things to get this bad, especially after a new owner came in with big money. I've always thought he was a good talent evaluator. The Leino & Ehrhoff signings were brutal.

Those contracts are on Pegula, why the hell would Darcy care how much they are getting paid? Still doesn't change the fact that regardless of contracts, Ehrhoff has been a solid player, and that no one expected Leino to be THIS bad.

And Darcy is a good talent evaluator. I honestly think that is the main reason why he still is where he is. He always gets good returns on his trades, and always makes good picks in the Draft. If a player can't cut it in the NHL, that's not on him, he can't predict the future.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Those contracts are on Pegula, why the hell would Darcy care how much they are getting paid? Still doesn't change the fact that regardless of contracts, Ehrhoff has been a solid player, and that no one expected Leino to be THIS bad.

And Darcy is a good talent evaluator. I honestly think that is the main reason why he still is where he is. He always gets good returns on his trades, and always makes good picks in the Draft. If a player can't cut it in the NHL, that's not on him, he can't predict the future.

I agree with you regarding his trades. Not so much when it comes to the draft though. Here's a list of Darcy's busts in the 1st round since he became the GM of the Sabres:

1997 Mika Noronen
1999 Barrett Heisten
2000 Artem Kryukov
2001 Jiri Novotny
2002 Daniel Paille
2005 Marek Zagrapan
2006 Denis Persson
2007 No 1st round pick because he traded it.

He also traded Kassian to Vancouver for Hodgson. Once again he got solid value. Trading isn't a concern. It's the picks he makes that I'd be a bit worried about. We'll see how the guys from 2010 on develop.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Every team has their fair share of 1st Round draft busts, that doesn't mean they weren't a good pick at the time.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Those contracts are on Pegula, why the hell would Darcy care how much they are getting paid? Still doesn't change the fact that regardless of contracts, Ehrhoff has been a solid player, and that no one expected Leino to be THIS bad.

And Darcy is a good talent evaluator. I honestly think that is the main reason why he still is where he is. He always gets good returns on his trades, and always makes good picks in the Draft. If a player can't cut it in the NHL, that's not on him, he can't predict the future.

I think I would argue that it would be more appropriate to say that's not always on him.

He's done his share of helping to ruin guys that didn't belong in the NHL yet. It's hard to say how those guys might have ended up (as in, they may have still fizzled out), but there are certainly players who weren't given a chance to develop properly and never recovered.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Every team has their fair share of 1st Round draft busts, that doesn't mean they weren't a good pick at the time.

That's a lot of 1st round busts. I don't care who it is making the picks. I'll be the first to admit the jury is definately out on Snow as a GM. It's really hard to grade him because all we really have to go by is the draft. His trades have been okay for the most part, but he hasn't made many of them. The Ryan Smyth trade was a steal. The Oilers have nothing to show for it. The Visnovsky trade has been fine & I wasn't a fan of it at the time. This deal could be great or blow up in his face. It really depends on how Darcy drafts & how those players develop.

The only 1st round bust from Snow is Calvin De Haan. The good news is he's actually healthy & playing this season. For the most part he's been injured.

 

[IPostedWhat]

He's done his share of helping to ruin guys that didn't belong in the NHL yet. It's hard to say how those guys might have ended up (as in, they may have still fizzled out), but there are certainly players who weren't given a chance to develop properly and never recovered.

That's always a tough one because it really depends on the player. Not all players are cut out for the NHL, regardless of how they are handled. And it's not like Darcy just decides by himself what to do with a player in regards to how he develops. That's why you have coaches, trainers, scouts, and a whole bunch of people that factor into it.

I'm not saying Darcy is without fault, but I thinks fans just use him as the easy scapegoat for anything that doesn't work out.

 

[IPostedWhat]

That's a lot of 1st round busts. I don't care who it is making the picks. I'll be the first to admit the jury is definately out on Snow as a GM. It's really hard to grade him because all we really have to go by is the draft. His trades have been okay for the most part, but he hasn't made many of them. The Ryan Smyth trade was a steal. The Oilers have nothing to show for it. The Visnovsky trade has been fine & I wasn't a fan of it at the time. This deal could be great or blow up in his face. It really depends on how Darcy drafts & how those players develop.

The only 1st round bust from Snow is Calvin De Haan. The good news is he's actually healthy & playing this season. For the most part he's been injured.

A lot of 1st round busts??? C'mon now, most of them were drafted late in the 1st Round where it's not a given they are going to pan out anyways. Most of the players drafted after some of them in the 1st Round never panned out either, so it's not like they missed out on a great player or anything.

And De Haan is not the only bust under Snow, you forgot about players like Bailey and Niederreiter. And to make things worse, Snow gave up 4 picks and a player for De Haan, and he was willing to give up all his picks in the 2012 draft just to get the 2nd overall pick. That's 7 picks, including the 4th overall just to move up 2 spots for 1 players. It never happened, but why he decided to do that is just crazy.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

That's always a tough one because it really depends on the player. Not all players are cut out for the NHL, regardless of how they are handled. And it's not like Darcy just decides by himself what to do with a player in regards to how he develops. That's why you have coaches, trainers, scouts, and a whole bunch of people that factor into it.

I'm not saying Darcy is without fault, but I thinks fans just use him as the easy scapegoat for anything that doesn't work out.

And I think much the opposite. He's been given so many chances to make things right and we now are looking at - most likely - the worst Sabres team in history.

Since he took over as GM, there have been 4 different owners (assuming we don't count the 2 years under league control as an owner since the team was still - on paper at least - owned by Rigas), two lockouts, a host of rule changes, and about a zillion different players. The only constants during this entire period were Regier himself and, until last year, Lindy Ruff. They removed Lindy Ruff from the equation and the team got worse.

For years everyone said Darcy was being hamstrung by ownership. While that was obviously true during certain periods, especially during the Rigas/Adelphia issues, he's had free reign at several other times and has done nothing with it. The team that went to the finals in '99 was Muckler's team. And even then, they weren't really all that good (4th in their own division) and road Hasek heavily to the Finals.

Then began the shitstorm of failed negotiations and lousy trades. First was Peca. Then Hasek. Then came the league controllership period and the abysmal Stu Barnes trade. Giving credit where it's due, he also made the Briere and Drury trades during this period.

He did pretty much nothing else coming out of the lockout and the Sabres were expected to be bad. That was obviously a surprise to everyone. Following the 2005-06 season, Regier was given the green-light by Golisano to spend to the cap if necessary. Another solid season in 2006-07 and then begain the second shitstorm. There's the obvious Drury, Briere, and Vanek messes. Then the failed negotiations with Brian Campbell.

Then he gets free reign to spend as much money as he wants under Pegula. And we all know how these last few years have gone.

Long post, I know, but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not picking on Regier because it's the trendy thing to do. His track record of fuckups speaks for itself.

 

[IPostedWhat]

And I think much the opposite. He's been given so many chances to make things right and we now are looking at - most likely - the worst Sabres team in history.

Since he took over as GM, there have been 4 different owners (assuming we don't count the 2 years under league control as an owner since the team was still - on paper at least - owned by Rigas), two lockouts, a host of rule changes, and about a zillion different players. The only constants during this entire period were Regier himself and, until last year, Lindy Ruff. They removed Lindy Ruff from the equation and the team got worse.

For years everyone said Darcy was being hamstrung by ownership. While that was obviously true during certain periods, especially during the Rigas/Adelphia issues, he's had free reign at several other times and has done nothing with it. The team that went to the finals in '99 was Muckler's team. And even then, they weren't really all that good (4th in their own division) and road Hasek heavily to the Finals.

Then began the shitstorm of failed negotiations and lousy trades. First was Peca. Then Hasek. Then came the league controllership period and the abysmal Stu Barnes trade. Giving credit where it's due, he also made the Briere and Drury trades during this period.

He did pretty much nothing else coming out of the lockout and the Sabres were expected to be bad. That was obviously a surprise to everyone. Following the 2005-06 season, Regier was given the green-light by Golisano to spend to the cap if necessary. Another solid season in 2006-07 and then begain the second shitstorm. There's the obvious Drury, Briere, and Vanek messes. Then the failed negotiations with Brian Campbell.

Then he gets free reign to spend as much money as he wants under Pegula. And we all know how these last few years have gone.

Long post, I know, but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not picking on Regier because it's the trendy thing to do. His track record of fuckups speaks for itself.

Agree to disagree then.

I don't feel that Reiger is responsible or at fault for some of the problems the Sabres are facing right now, and I think fans blame who they feel is responsible without knowing the whole picture is all. They blamed Ruff, and wanted him gone, and now those same fans wish he was back.

I'm just saying that I think it's easier just to say it's all Darcy's fault because he's been the one thing that's been constant with this team over the years.


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