Round 2: Sharks vs Red Wings

[RaiderZar]

CMon, Korky or Filo, Please explain to a long-time hockey fan, but never a player, why do all or most other teams knock a skater off of the puck, while Sharks continue to do fly-by's? They seem to hit pretty well along the boards, but they seldom hit a moving target carrying the puck in their zone. Fuck, I'm sick of watching 'gutless' hockey.

 

[rares]

Logan tweet:

“I’ve played hockey for 19 years to get a chance to play in a Game 7 in the Stanley Cup Playoffs.”

Poor kid doesn't know what he's in for with this team he's on...

 

[filosofy29]

CMon, Korky or Filo, Please explain to a long-time hockey fan, but never a player, why do all or most other teams knock a skater off of the puck, while Sharks continue to do fly-by's? They seem to hit pretty well along the boards, but they seldom hit a moving target carrying the puck in their zone. Fuck, I'm sick of watching 'gutless' hockey.

It's not something that should happen. I've played in roller hockey (supposedly no-checking) leagues that finish their checks better than the Sharks. The Sharks should always be finishing their checks when the opportunities present themselves (especially against Detroit's defense). That said, you don't want to go running around and going out of your way.

The Sharks don't seem to have many players on their roster who have the "check and pin" your opponent skill. If the Sharks players do check at all, it's usually just a "fly-by" check that is not very effective. It can be dangerous going for these types of hits due to the fact that you can get holding and interference calls, but if done right, they are very effective for board play. The Sharks need to put people on their arses when they're back-checking instead of just 2-arm pushing and hoping for the best (Murray is one obvious exception).

If you're more wondering why we don't have a guy like Kronwall who has crushing open ice hits to knock the puck off the opponent. Their's a good reason for that. Open ice hits are about timing more than anything else (well, balance too, but people in the NHL have balance). If you miss an open ice hit (hell even sometimes when you connect) you put your team at a big disadvantage by putting yourself out of position and most likely causing an odd-man rush. Ironically, one of the worst players at "timing" was Bryan Marchment even though he'd probably go down as their most feared open-ice hitter. He'd always be a step late or a step slow and would have to resort to widening his stance as he was going for the hit. This is the reason why he was so dirty. He'd rather risk hurting somebody badly than missing that hit. Kronwall is dirty for a different reason. He actually has impeccable timining on most of his hits, he just JUMPS into people a split second before contact. Make no mistake though, this is a REALLY, REALLY difficult skill to perfect. It's probably a big reason why the hip check is kind of going the way of the dinosaur. It's hard to do and hard to teach. You have to have great, great timing and know when and where to use it.

Sorry for the novel.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the above is all just my opinion. I'm not an expert by any means. Cmon may have a totally different explanation. Of the two, I'd take his, lol. But I dont' think I'm too far off.

 

[Slimpikins]

It's not something that should happen. I've played in roller hockey (supposedly no-checking) leagues that finish their checks better than the Sharks. The Sharks should always be finishing their checks when the opportunities present themselves (especially against Detroit's defense). That said, you don't want to go running around and going out of your way.

The Sharks don't seem to have many players on their roster who have the "check and pin" your opponent skill. If the Sharks players do check at all, it's usually just a "fly-by" check that is not very effective. It can be dangerous going for these types of hits due to the fact that you can get holding and interference calls, but if done right, they are very effective for board play. The Sharks need to put people on their arses when they're back-checking instead of just 2-arm pushing and hoping for the best (Murray is one obvious exception).

If you're more wondering why we don't have a guy like Kronwall who has crushing open ice hits to knock the puck off the opponent. Their's a good reason for that. Open ice hits are about timing more than anything else (well, balance too, but people in the NHL have balance). If you miss an open ice hit (hell even sometimes when you connect) you put your team at a big disadvantage by putting yourself out of position and most likely causing an odd-man rush. Ironically, one of the worst players at "timing" was Bryan Marchment even though he'd probably go down as their most feared open-ice hitter. He'd always be a step late or a step slow and would have to resort to widening his stance as he was going for the hit. This is the reason why he was so dirty. He'd rather risk hurting somebody badly than missing that hit. Kronwall is dirty for a different reason. He actually has impeccable timining on most of his hits, he just JUMPS into people a split second before contact. Make no mistake though, this is a REALLY, REALLY difficult skill to perfect. It's probably a big reason why the hip check is kind of going the way of the dinosaur. It's hard to do and hard to teach. You have to have great, great timing and know when and where to use it.

Sorry for the novel.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the above is all just my opinion. I'm not an expert by any means. Cmon may have a totally different explanation. Of the two, I'd take his, lol. But I dont' think I'm too far off.

Cliffnotes version: Sharks are soft.

 

[sjrules99]

It's not something that should happen. I've played in roller hockey (supposedly no-checking) leagues that finish their checks better than the Sharks. The Sharks should always be finishing their checks when the opportunities present themselves (especially against Detroit's defense). That said, you don't want to go running around and going out of your way.

The Sharks don't seem to have many players on their roster who have the "check and pin" your opponent skill. If the Sharks players do check at all, it's usually just a "fly-by" check that is not very effective. It can be dangerous going for these types of hits due to the fact that you can get holding and interference calls, but if done right, they are very effective for board play. The Sharks need to put people on their arses when they're back-checking instead of just 2-arm pushing and hoping for the best (Murray is one obvious exception).

If you're more wondering why we don't have a guy like Kronwall who has crushing open ice hits to knock the puck off the opponent. Their's a good reason for that. Open ice hits are about timing more than anything else (well, balance too, but people in the NHL have balance). If you miss an open ice hit (hell even sometimes when you connect) you put your team at a big disadvantage by putting yourself out of position and most likely causing an odd-man rush. Ironically, one of the worst players at "timing" was Bryan Marchment even though he'd probably go down as their most feared open-ice hitter. He'd always be a step late or a step slow and would have to resort to widening his stance as he was going for the hit. This is the reason why he was so dirty. He'd rather risk hurting somebody badly than missing that hit. Kronwall is dirty for a different reason. He actually has impeccable timining on most of his hits, he just JUMPS into people a split second before contact. Make no mistake though, this is a REALLY, REALLY difficult skill to perfect. It's probably a big reason why the hip check is kind of going the way of the dinosaur. It's hard to do and hard to teach. You have to have great, great timing and know when and where to use it.

Sorry for the novel.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the above is all just my opinion. I'm not an expert by any means. Cmon may have a totally different explanation. Of the two, I'd take his, lol. But I dont' think I'm too far off.

sounds about right, but it's beyond the highlight reel super hip check like kronwall on heater and clowe. Its the fly-by instead of the start-and-stop that drives you mad. Like in game 5 when kronwall had the puck and cut to the middle and gutless just stuck his stick out, missed, and kept skating that drive you mad. You arent always gunna make the pretty smashing blow, but you cant float by. Great defensive players are always on your back poking at the puck and making life difficult no matter how man quick stops and starts and dashes you pull. Sticking with a guy and never letting go is the key. part of that is also taking the body when the opposing player is vulnerable. Case in point: murray on bertuzzi's 2nd attempt at the spin-o-rama. Murray just threw him down and the puck harmlessly seeped into Niemi. That's good D and something the sharks lazier forwards struggle with.

 

[RaiderZar]

It's not something that should happen. I've played in roller hockey (supposedly no-checking) leagues that finish their checks better than the Sharks. The Sharks should always be finishing their checks when the opportunities present themselves (especially against Detroit's defense). That said, you don't want to go running around and going out of your way.

The Sharks don't seem to have many players on their roster who have the "check and pin" your opponent skill. If the Sharks players do check at all, it's usually just a "fly-by" check that is not very effective. It can be dangerous going for these types of hits due to the fact that you can get holding and interference calls, but if done right, they are very effective for board play. The Sharks need to put people on their arses when they're back-checking instead of just 2-arm pushing and hoping for the best (Murray is one obvious exception).

If you're more wondering why we don't have a guy like Kronwall who has crushing open ice hits to knock the puck off the opponent. Their's a good reason for that. Open ice hits are about timing more than anything else (well, balance too, but people in the NHL have balance). If you miss an open ice hit (hell even sometimes when you connect) you put your team at a big disadvantage by putting yourself out of position and most likely causing an odd-man rush. Ironically, one of the worst players at "timing" was Bryan Marchment even though he'd probably go down as their most feared open-ice hitter. He'd always be a step late or a step slow and would have to resort to widening his stance as he was going for the hit. This is the reason why he was so dirty. He'd rather risk hurting somebody badly than missing that hit. Kronwall is dirty for a different reason. He actually has impeccable timining on most of his hits, he just JUMPS into people a split second before contact. Make no mistake though, this is a REALLY, REALLY difficult skill to perfect. It's probably a big reason why the hip check is kind of going the way of the dinosaur. It's hard to do and hard to teach. You have to have great, great timing and know when and where to use it.

Sorry for the novel.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the above is all just my opinion. I'm not an expert by any means. Cmon may have a totally different explanation. Of the two, I'd take his, lol. But I dont' think I'm too far off.

There has been more than one occasion or opportunity for 2 Sharks to kind of 'pancake' a guy, but they both end up with fly-by's. Also, what would have been the problem with PM knocking Datsuck off the puck after the steal in 5. I didn't so much fault the steal, just the effort afterwards. Whatever Slugless is smoking, he needs to pass it on. He's been lights-out on knocking the lights-out.

 

[Mr. Teal]

Sharks are giving me fishrage, but when have they ever made it easy for us to be fans?

Ok here's my armchair power play QB view:
Score on the power play! WTF? Also, could someone on the team older than 26 please score?

 

[rares]

Bunch of bullshit propaganda for those optimists out there:

One Word: Confident - San Jose Sharks - News

I would have named it "One Word: Chokers" and taken it a slightly different direction but that's just me...

 

[Mr. Teal]

Hey man, series isn't over yet.
Game 7 invariably favors the home team and the Sharks' home crowd is always awesome.

 

[Cbrower91]

CMon, Korky or Filo, Please explain to a long-time hockey fan, but never a player, why do all or most other teams knock a skater off of the puck, while Sharks continue to do fly-by's? They seem to hit pretty well along the boards, but they seldom hit a moving target carrying the puck in their zone. Fuck, I'm sick of watching 'gutless' hockey.

From what i've heard many of the current sharks players and coaches say in interviews past. you just dont run around taking yourself out of position to hit a guy. A matter Slugglass Murray is always saying that.

I think this attributes greatly to the fly by method, though in the first round players like Demers were lowering the boom constantly.

That being said the sharks arent even initiating contact at all this series, they didnt land a hit in the first 10 minutes of game 6, it was embarrassing to watch.

Theres no excuse to not at least rub a guy out into the boards or try and put a body on him when he cuts to the inside.

The only other sharks excuse i can think of is, that if they do play the body they dont gain puck control to start quick out in transition. Its pretty much taking them out of the play, but that seems like a lame excuse seeing how sharks play a puck support game.

Either way if someone on the sharks doesnt lay a big hit on the first shift of game 7, and they dont put a body on Zetterberg and Datysuk on their first shifts you can pretty much count on them getting stomped

 

[bdave]

From what i've heard many of the current sharks players and coaches say in interviews past. you just dont run around taking yourself out of position to hit a guy. A matter Slugglass Murray is always saying that.

I think this attributes greatly to the fly by method, though in the first round players like Demers were lowering the boom constantly.

That being said the sharks arent even initiating contact at all this series, they didnt land a hit in the first 10 minutes of game 6, it was embarrassing to watch.

Theres no excuse to not at least rub a guy out into the boards or try and put a body on him when he cuts to the inside.

The only other sharks excuse i can think of is, that if they do play the body they dont gain puck control to start quick out in transition. Its pretty much taking them out of the play, but that seems like a lame excuse seeing how sharks play a puck support game.

Either way if someone on the sharks doesnt lay a big hit on the first shift of game 7, and they dont put a body on Zetterberg and Datysuk on their first shifts you can pretty much count on them getting stomped

This is exactly why we let them get back into the series too. Seemed like last year we punked them around so much they couldn't get shots off the way they hoped. Being soft in the last 3 games, detroits got all the time in the world to score. Had the team hit in the 3rd period of game 5, we would have been resting for the Canucks already. ...fucking douchebags...

 

[Nimesis23]

I think the best way to look at this game tomorrow is like this:

1. We win, and we could be heading on a trip deeper into the playoffs than we've ever been before.

2. We lose, and finally there will be significant enough pressure on management to dump playoff underachievers like Heater, Joe, and Patty to let the true gritty core of Pavelski, Clowe, Couture, and Boyle take the reigns of this team.

Regardless, its a positive outcome if you look at it this way. Unlike in years past with playoff disappointments, the play of Pavelski, Clowe, and Couture in this playoffs has really gotten me excited to see what they can do in the future with a few more years of development and some additional players added around them who actually give a shit. This isn't a Joe/Patty bashing thread, its just a fact. If we lose with them, they've been given more than 6 years to get the job done and they haven't, so they will need to be let go. ATLEAST 2/3 of Joe, Patty, and Heatley need to go so that more quality players (D-men and consistent scorers, grit/heart guys) can be brought in to surround Pavs/Clowe/Couture for future cup runs.

 

[filosofy29]

I think the best way to look at this game tomorrow is like this:

1. We win, and we could be heading on a trip deeper into the playoffs than we've ever been before.

2. We lose, and finally there will be significant enough pressure on management to dump playoff underachievers like Heater, Joe, and Patty to let the true gritty core of Pavelski, Clowe, Couture, and Boyle take the reigns of this team.

Regardless, its a positive outcome if you look at it this way. Unlike in years past with playoff disappointments, the play of Pavelski, Clowe, and Couture in this playoffs has really gotten me excited to see what they can do in the future with a few more years of development and some additional players added around them who actually give a shit. This isn't a Joe/Patty bashing thread, its just a fact. If we lose with them, they've been given more than 6 years to get the job done and they haven't, so they will need to be let go. ATLEAST 2/3 of Joe, Patty, and Heatley need to go so that more quality players (D-men and consistent scorers, grit/heart guys) can be brought in to surround Pavs/Clowe/Couture for future cup runs.

Agreed. However, don't kid yourself, DWil will NEVER trade Thornton. You can't trade Heatley's pathetic ass. Who wants a $7.5mil 60+pt floater who doesn't play defense? Marleau's the only one that they'll get rid of.

 

[sjrules99]

Agreed. However, don't kid yourself, DWil will NEVER trade Thornton. You can't trade Heatley's pathetic ass. Who wants a $7.5mil 60+pt floater who doesn't play defense? Marleau's the only one that they'll get rid of.

I would agree. Heater is unmoveable. Jumbo is the new face of the franchise, captain, and true golden boy. However, the problem is that no matter what happens, I cant see dougie moving gutless either. He's signed for a while, and dougie is bitterly loyal to guys like him who have put in their time. Its highly unlikely than any of those three will be moved before their contracts expire pretty much no matter what.

Of course, dougie has surprised us before and has shown that he is not afraid to make big time deals, so who knows.

Hopefully, they pull it off tomorrow, and all of this conversation is moot. If they win tomorrow, and manage to take out the nucks, then the questions will end right then and there. It would be so liberating if that happened... aaahhhh.....

 

[filosofy29]

I would agree. Heater is unmoveable. Jumbo is the new face of the franchise, captain, and true golden boy. However, the problem is that no matter what happens, I cant see dougie moving gutless either. He's signed for a while, and dougie is bitterly loyal to guys like him who have put in their time. Its highly unlikely than any of those three will be moved before their contracts expire pretty much no matter what.

Of course, dougie has surprised us before and has shown that he is not afraid to make big time deals, so who knows.

Hopefully, they pull it off tomorrow, and all of this conversation is moot. If they win tomorrow, and manage to take out the nucks, then the questions will end right then and there. It would be so liberating if that happened... aaahhhh.....

I don't know rules, I think DWil's loyalty (I don't think the fan base would allow him too even if he were inclined) wouldn't handle a 4 game sweep after being up 3 games to none. He'll have to get rid of one of the supposedly "big" 3. Marleau's the easiest one to trade.

Hopefully this will all be moot though and we'll be ecstatic about the WCF's against Vancouver.

 

[Nimesis23]

I agree Joe's probably gonna stay, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Joe is a huge producer in the regular season and his playoff performance has been improving over the past couple years. If you get some more consistent playoff wingers around him, we can still build around the core of Pavelski/Clowe/Couture, but just keep Joe on to provide the regular season spark to get us to the playoffs.

I also don't think Heatley and Marleau are unmovable. We are looking at them very harshly right now because of their playoff struggles, but these guys are usually pretty solid in the regular season. Teams that are struggling to make the playoffs could use their production and even teams that have the right pieces in place where they don't have to be the main contributors (teams like Tampa or Philly) would probably benefit from having either of those guys.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I agree Joe's probably gonna stay, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Joe is a huge producer in the regular season and his playoff performance has been improving over the past couple years. If you get some more consistent playoff wingers around him, we can still build around the core of Pavelski/Clowe/Couture, but just keep Joe on to provide the regular season spark to get us to the playoffs.

I also don't think Heatley and Marleau are unmovable. We are looking at them very harshly right now because of their playoff struggles, but these guys are usually pretty solid in the regular season. Teams that are struggling to make the playoffs could use their production and even teams that have the right pieces in place where they don't have to be the major contributors (teams like Tampa or Philly) would probably benefit from having either of those guys.

Marleau's contract has a No Movement Clause in it. That means Dougie can't trade or even place him on waivers without Marleau's permission first. The only way the team can get rid of him is to buy him out and that ain't happening. Heatley is tradable but the return is going to be a mixed bag of good along with salary dumps.

 

[Mr. Teal]

Joe stepped up. I have no problem with Joe.
He's the guy that made the game 3 win happen.
He was integral with the LA series.

Marleau is absent.

 

[rares]

Yeah, I hope Marleau doesn't waive his NMC... I wouldn't. Not his fault his GM lost touch with reality 2-3 years ago.

Just fire Dougie, get rid of dead weight, aka "Dougie's boys" (Huskins, Wallin, Eager, Mitchell, Mayers, McGinn, etc.), sign Nolan to a 1-year minimum wage contract (now that the one stubborn fuck who wouldn't sign him is gone), etc.

 

[filosofy29]

Yeah, I hope Marleau doesn't waive his NMC... I wouldn't. Not his fault his GM lost touch with reality 2-3 years ago.

Just fire Dougie, get rid of dead weight, aka "Dougie's boys" (Huskins, Wallin, Eager, Mitchell, Mayers, McGinn, etc.), sign Nolan to a 1-year minimum wage contract (now that the one stubborn fuck who wouldn't sign him is gone), etc.

I didn't always feel this way, but I'd actually try to keep Mitchell now. If I could keep the Wellwood-Pavelski-Mitchell line together for next season, I would. That's a cheap, effective line that has proven they deserve a shot to stay together. Wallin and Huskins will not be back (otherwise I'll kill somebody). I wouldn't mind keeping Eager if he remains cheap. McGinn and Mayers can and should go as well.