Putting MY Stock in

[deep9er]

Deep, why do you often feel the need to disparage us, the fans? What is the point of doing that? Is there a specific decorum we "over-reacting fans" need to be following – Can you enlighten us, 'cause that would be great!

Btw, are you aware Tolzien kicked our ass last year in pre-season? So for most of us this isn't our first exposure to Tolzien, thus I think perhaps the only one over-reacting here is you.

if i had an answer i'd tell you, but sorry, i really don't? just find it interesting how fans react most times, not attacking anyone in particular. anyways, i'll try to be better in this regard.

i'm not passing judgement on Tolzien in any way, thats my point, its only been one pre-season game.

you just noted a took a shot at the fans, not a player? but then you go to say i'm over reacting on Tolzien?

 

[Bemular]

if i had an answer i'd tell you, but sorry, i really don't? just find it interesting how fans react most times, not attacking anyone in particular. anyways, i'll try to be better in this regard.

i'm not passing judgement on Tolzien in any way, thats my point, its only been one pre-season game.

you just noted a took a shot at the fans, not a player? but then you go to say i'm over reacting on Tolzien?

No. Deep. Over-reacting to the fans - not Tolzien. Like I mentioned, for many/most of us this is not the first pre-season game we have seen Tolzien play. Perhaps this was your first game, but not for many/most of us.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I was going to respond to Deep in a similar fashion.

Deep, this board is not populated with your run-of-the-mill over-the-top fans. Very few of us, in my experience, fly off the handle in terms of expectations or have knee-jerk reactions the way that many other fans might. There is, of course, a penchant for some over-reaction among most fans, even here. But you constantly overstate this. Even as you do so, you tend to speak in broad generalities without taking a stand on anything specific. It's a rather frustrating habit that, as Bem stated, makes it appear that you are dismissing the thoughtful opinions of your fellow posters.

In this case, based primarily on what I saw last offseason and what I have read - since I have seen virtually nothing of Tolzien since preseason last year - I think Tolzien has several traits that could make him an ideal backup in the league in the mold of a Shaun Hill with perhaps somewhat better arm strength. Because of who the primary backup is, specifically a player with a high ceiling and low floor, I think it makes a lot of sense for the third QB to be a player with a high floor but lower ceiling. Johnson is more of a low floor, high ceiling player too, so he doesn't fit that role very well. My opinion has almost nothing to do with the most recent game. It has developed over the past year as I have become more familiar with Tolzien.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Though it must be noted that the preseason game is very important in terms of our decision re: Tolzien because other teams will base their opinions on those games. If one other team likes him, we would lose him if we waive him. His positive performance in a game dramatically increases the likelihood that another team might give him a chance, as we did last year.

 

[Arete Tzu]

Here is my take on the QB's after pre-season game one:

I wasn't at all impressed with Kaepernick or Johnson as QB's. Tolzien looked good, and if Palmer doesn't shit his pants on the drop his numbers would have been even better.

His only glaring mistake was the INT which looked identical to a couple INT's Smith threw vs. Indy in 2005. He gets credit for "trying" to make something happen but ultimately it was a boneheaded mistake.

I think Tolzien may be a better QB than either Colin or Josh from an accuracy standpoint, but the lack of intangibles could be his downfall. He has a weak arm, he appears to be immobile as well as indecisive. Translation, if accurate, then without a pocket and time to throw he is pretty much useless - However, with a pocket and time to throw I think he could shred defenses.

I didn't get the impression that he was indecisive. I still have to re-watch the game, but I felt like he made good reads and got it out in both games I've watched him in.

I'll be sure to pay special attention to his decisiveness when i re-watch it.

 

[Arete Tzu]

I was going to respond to Deep in a similar fashion.

Deep, this board is not populated with your run-of-the-mill over-the-top fans. Very few of us, in my experience, fly off the handle in terms of expectations or have knee-jerk reactions the way that many other fans might. There is, of course, a penchant for some over-reaction among most fans, even here. But you constantly overstate this. Even as you do so, you tend to speak in broad generalities without taking a stand on anything specific. It's a rather frustrating habit that, as Bem stated, makes it appear that you are dismissing the thoughtful opinions of your fellow posters.

In this case, based primarily on what I saw last offseason and what I have read - since I have seen virtually nothing of Tolzien since preseason last year - I think Tolzien has several traits that could make him an ideal backup in the league in the mold of a Shaun Hill with perhaps somewhat better arm strength. Because of who the primary backup is, specifically a player with a high ceiling and low floor, I think it makes a lot of sense for the third QB to be a player with a high floor but lower ceiling. Johnson is more of a low floor, high ceiling player too, so he doesn't fit that role very well. My opinion has almost nothing to do with the most recent game. It has developed over the past year as I have become more familiar with Tolzien.

This is exactly how I see it. Tolzien seems to have a higher floor than our other back ups, but I'm not sure how much his physical limitations stunt his ceiling.

To Deep, I don't know about others here, but everything I've said comes as an evaluation of potential not a final product. He still has room to grow in every area I've praised him in, but he shows signs of good things. I'm fully aware that he has played against nobodies, but all things considered he has done relatively good. No one will argue against the idea that we need to see more against better competition.

 

[Bemular]

I didn't get the impression that he was indecisive. I still have to re-watch the game, but I felt like he made good reads and got it out in both games I've watched him in.

I'll be sure to pay special attention to his decisiveness when i re-watch it.

I completely agree on his decision making skills, I think he "reads" things very well and makes excellent decisions. Even his INT, if he had literally 1/2 of a second more time, I believe would have been 6 to 40 (Dobbs had come open between zones)

Anyway, it just seemed, at times, that he was indecisive, or perhaps slow to make his read. I watched the game only once so the accuracy of my opinion is questionable. I look forward to hearing your thoughts when you get the chance to watch the game again - Thanks Arete

 

[Bemular]

I was going to respond to Deep in a similar fashion.

Deep, this board is not populated with your run-of-the-mill over-the-top fans. Very few of us, in my experience, fly off the handle in terms of expectations or have knee-jerk reactions the way that many other fans might. There is, of course, a penchant for some over-reaction among most fans, even here. But you constantly overstate this. Even as you do so, you tend to speak in broad generalities without taking a stand on anything specific. It's a rather frustrating habit that, as Bem stated, makes it appear that you are dismissing the thoughtful opinions of your fellow posters.

In this case, based primarily on what I saw last offseason and what I have read - since I have seen virtually nothing of Tolzien since preseason last year - I think Tolzien has several traits that could make him an ideal backup in the league in the mold of a Shaun Hill with perhaps somewhat better arm strength. Because of who the primary backup is, specifically a player with a high ceiling and low floor, I think it makes a lot of sense for the third QB to be a player with a high floor but lower ceiling. Johnson is more of a low floor, high ceiling player too, so he doesn't fit that role very well. My opinion has almost nothing to do with the most recent game. It has developed over the past year as I have become more familiar with Tolzien.

Like Arete, I agree with this as well - I also like the Shaun Hill comparisons.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Kevin Lynch and Matt Barrows were both heavily agreeing on the Shaun Hill comp. the other day.

Regarding the posts earlier about being able to judge QBs in pre-season, its just the oldest problem in the book......its so deceptive. The problem is it looks like a football game, sounds like a football game, but its not a game. I am pretty sure just about all of you guys know more football than I do, and pay more attention, so I definitely don't discount your analysis. Just that you're practically better off watching practice than one of these games when it comes to evaluations. The competition is just too weak and disorganized.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Did I really see a link comparing Tolzien to Drew Brees?

It's pre-season. It's not only pre-season but it's the first pre-season game. It's not only the first pre-season game, it was the first pre-season game against third stringers. It wasn't only the first pre-season game against third stringers, it was the first pre-season game against third stringers running a vanilla scheme.

I don't doubt that he's better than Josh Johnson at this point, but let's see how it plays out.

 

[Bemular]

Kevin Lynch and Matt Barrows were both heavily agreeing on the Shaun Hill comp. the other day.

Regarding the posts earlier about being able to judge QBs in pre-season, its just the oldest problem in the book......its so deceptive. The problem is it looks like a football game, sounds like a football game, but its not a game. I am pretty sure just about all of you guys know more football than I do, and pay more attention, so I definitely don't discount your analysis. Just that you're practically better off watching practice than one of these games when it comes to evaluations. The competition is just too weak and disorganized.

I could agree more - but only slightly. I like the deception angle and you make a very accurate point - but only to a point. It all comes down to how you evaluate pre-season.

If you understand the game on a tactical, athletic or even an instinctive level then pre-season can provide a wealth of information - it has to; players’ careers are decided upon by what happens during pre-season games.

So the information is there you just have to know what to look for and how to look at it. Statistics are perhaps the only thing in pre-season that doesn't matter - just about everything else, however, does matter.

 

[coffeeman]

I could agree more - but only slightly. I like the deception angle and you make a very accurate point - but only to a point. It all comes down to how you evaluate pre-season.

If you understand the game on a tactical, athletic or even an instinctive level then pre-season can provide a wealth of information - it has to; players’ careers are decided upon by what happens during pre-season games.So the information is there you just have to know what to look for and how to look at it. Statistics are perhaps the only thing in pre-season that doesn't matter - just about everything else, however, does matter.

I don't know if I agree with that statement. I think that coaches give more weight or properly evaluate a player more on the basis of what they do in practice. If a player is doing well in practice and continues to build upon that in the exhibition games, then I think the coaches take notice.

 

[Bemular]

I don't know if I agree with that statement. I think that coaches give more weight or properly evaluate a player more on the basis of what they do in practice. If a player is doing well in practice and continues to build upon that in the exhibition games, then I think the coaches take notice.

Exactly - My point was not meant to exclude practice. I was simply stating that Pre-season, (as an extension of those practice evaluations) provides critical information in the decision making process.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Exactly - My point was not meant to exclude practice. I was simply stating that Pre-season, (as an extension of those practice evaluations) provides critical information in the decision making process.

I wouldn't say critical information. I think preseason is just about seeing how well players run and how their instincts are, ESPECIALLY when the 3rd stringers are in. The game changes dramatically when teams start implementing real tactics and schemes.

 

[Bemular]

I wouldn't say critical information. I think preseason is just about seeing how well players run and how their instincts are, ESPECIALLY when the 3rd stringers are in. The game changes dramatically when teams start implementing real tactics and schemes.

Clyde, it is absolutely critical and I'll explain why. First and for the sake of argument, I'm defining the term critical as information necessary to the decision making process.

Pre-season (PS) game evals have as always been critical, but today, they are more critical than ever because of the new CBA. The new CBA has rendered practices to a shell (no pun intended) of what they once were.

Here is a list of changes to NFL practices:

*Teams are no longer allowed 2-a-day practices
*Teams are allowed an average of only 1 padded practice a week
*Teams have a maximum time of 4.5 hours a day on-field per day in training camp
*The one weekly padded practice has been reduced to 3 hours during training camp
*Second practices are limited to a non-helmet walk through

In addition to those loses, responses during practice are measured; and while PS games are not played with reckless abandon, it is during these games that players can play with a little less attrition.

It is during PS games that QB's actually have to worry about getting decked and RB's need to be concerned about the second level and WR's need to think about where the safeties are.

As I alluded to earlier, IMO, the only places where PS games are truly meaningless are in the standings, on the stat sheet and in the box score. The vast majority of PS minutes are played by those trying to make the team.

Player performance in these games are evaluated by coaches who will use this information in conjunction with practice evaluations to decide which players make the team, and that is why PS is critical.

As a sidebar, this discussion is near & dear to me because I remember how Terrell Davis, a 6th round DP in '95, caught the attention of Shanahan & Co. and then went on to make the team.

He first caught the attention of Shanahan and the coaching staff in a PS game vs. us when, on a special teams play, he just blew-up the KO return man. Up until that play he had made little noise in practice.

Going forward from that point here is a quote from Shanahan about TD in 1995.

"The last pre-season game was Jacksonville and we started Terrell Davis, we wanted to see how good this guy was. After he played in that Jacksonville game we knew we had our starter"

If PS games meant this much to Shanahan in '95 I'm pretty sure they are just as critical today; and, with the reduced practice exposure due to the CBA I wouldn't be surprised if they were more critical.

 

[bigpb72]

"Harbaugh said Smith will be followed by Kaepernick, Johnson and then Tolzien in Saturday’s preseason road matchup against the Houston Texans. But as Harbaugh said, “This competition – it moves. It’s fluid; it goes up, it goes down, it goes sideways.” So who Puts on a show in Hou Tolzien will have Tyms and Onuwsu to throw to. Kap will have jenkins and kyle williams for the most part

 

[MHSL82]

With the talk about the limited practice, the below thought (2nd paragraph) wouldn't work because the focus of the rules is on what the teams could do as opposed to what the players must do. I know this is not allowed under current rules and there are some practical reasons why you wouldn't do the following, but it's a brainstorm. (Below)

If the focus of the rules were to limit how much the player's have to do, I wonder if teams could have two practices, but each player only allowed to come to one of them. That way, each player would not be practicing more than the CBA agreed time, the teams could have more reps in a day, one day per week would be padded, each player would likely have less than the 4.5 hour allotment (but be in the reps the whole time as opposed to taking turns), each half could do 3 hours in a padded week of practice, etc. They would have to alternate and have different combinations of players, but they could see more practice for evaluation. Some positions, of course, aren't as stacked as others and it may be more physically exhausting to be in there every rep when you're not alternating much (if there are 2-3 total vying for one spot). Plus, the coaches don't want to be out there 9 hours or necessarily cut two practices minutes. Just a thought.

 

[Bemular]

With the talk about the limited practice, the below thought (2nd paragraph) wouldn't work because the focus of the rules is on what the teams could do as opposed to what the players must do. I know this is not allowed under current rules and there are some practical reasons why you wouldn't do the following, but it's a brainstorm. (Below)

If the focus of the rules were to limit how much the player's have to do, I wonder if teams could have two practices, but each player only allowed to come to one of them. That way, each player would not be practicing more than the CBA agreed time, the teams could have more reps in a day, one day per week would be padded, each player would likely have less than the 4.5 hour allotment (but be in the reps the whole time as opposed to taking turns), each half could do 3 hours in a padded week of practice, etc. They would have to alternate and have different combinations of players, but they could see more practice for evaluation. Some positions, of course, aren't as stacked as others and it may be more physically exhausting to be in there every rep when you're not alternating much (if there are 2-3 total vying for one spot). Plus, the coaches don't want to be out there 9 hours or necessarily cut two practices minutes. Just a thought.

WhatTheMotherFuck?!?

Other than that I think its brilliant!

 

[MHSL82]

WhatTheMotherFuck?!?

Other than that I think its brilliant!

Thanks!