Putting MY Stock in

[Crimsoncrew]

one more comment........this ISN'T likely but throwing it out anyway........IF it turns out both Tolzien and JJ are projected better than Kap, then cut KAP. would this look bad? yes! would this 'sting' and generate tons of comments? yes! would this message board go crazy? yes!

in the big picture - looking beyond this season - you have to win games. as the GM and HC, you do what you need to do to win games. the fan base will be disturbed short term, but if you continue to win..............winning "cures all ills".

I don't agree with this. If it becomes clear that Kaepernick won't continue to improve, then we cut him. But that's an extreme scenario that is virtually impossible. In any other case, the two other guys will have to outperform Kaepernick handily.

Josh Johnson is a four-year vet. He should be better than Kaepernick at this point, given the short offense last year and the offense Kaepernick came out of. If the high second-round pick you traded up to get is even close to the street FA you picked up on the cheap, you've got to give the edge to the second rounder one year into his career. I don't think Kaepernick is cuttable for two more years unless he completely tanks. There's too much upside there, and the position takes too long to learn.

 

[deep9er]

I don't agree with this. If it becomes clear that Kaepernick won't continue to improve, then we cut him. But that's an extreme scenario that is virtually impossible. In any other case, the two other guys will have to outperform Kaepernick handily.

Josh Johnson is a four-year vet. He should be better than Kaepernick at this point, given the short offense last year and the offense Kaepernick came out of. If the high second-round pick you traded up to get is even close to the street FA you picked up on the cheap, you've got to give the edge to the second rounder one year into his career. I don't think Kaepernick is cuttable for two more years unless he completely tanks. There's too much upside there, and the position takes too long to learn.

sorry, i don't get the part in bolden? cause thats what i just posted too.........but you don't agree???

yes it isn't likely (as i already posted), but i wouldn't go so far as "virtually impossible"?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Hopefully one day he will be as good as Cleo Lemon.

Never, ever judge anything about a QB by a pre-season game.

Speaking for myself, with regard to Tolzien, it's more than just the preseason performances. As much as anything, it's about the practice reports. The kid's got a hell of a work ethic, he's smart, loves the game. The only serious negative is his arm strength, and it appears he's improved that somewhat (he's also not very mobile from what I've seen, though that's very secondary IMO). He lacks prototypical size, but he's got enough height and bulk to play in the league. And in this case, the reports of Johnson struggling in "live" action also play a part.

 

[deep9er]

There's plenty of preseason left, but going into camp I gave Johnson the advantage. At this point, I think Tolzien is leading the competition. Of course nothing is final at this point, but I think Tolzien profiles as a more likely backup, and very possibly as the better player overall.

no problem here, you're just doing what all of us are doing....taking his performance and projecting ahead.

on one hand you agree there's plenty of pre-season left, but on the other it reads like you've already selected Tolzien? nothing wrong with selecting Tolzien, just that you keep throwing in the 'hedging'?

 

[Bemular]

no problem here, you're just doing what all of us are doing....taking his performance and projecting ahead.

on one hand you agree there's plenty of pre-season left, but on the other it reads like you've already selected Tolzien? nothing wrong with selecting Tolzien, just that you keep throwing in the 'hedging'?

I completely agree with this!

C'mon Crimson! - This isn't blackjack you can't split the bet. Which is it? Are you picking Tolzien to back-up Smith in a run-away or in a close race? (My guy has seemingly already shit the bed so I figure I might as well have some fun with the guesses of other posters)

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I've said I think Tolzien is leading right now. As said, I haven't seen the game yet (hoping to tomorrow), so I haven't seen Tolzien throw a pass since last preseason. I'm not sure when the last time I saw a Josh Johnson pass was, outside of camp highlights on 49ers.com. So I don't have a strong opinion.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

sorry, i don't get the part in bolden? cause thats what i just posted too.........but you don't agree???

yes it isn't likely (as i already posted), but i wouldn't go so far as "virtually impossible"?

I took your meaning to be that if both Tolzien and Johnson projected better this season. If you meant long-term, then we don't disagree.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Speaking for myself, with regard to Tolzien, it's more than just the preseason performances. As much as anything, it's about the practice reports. The kid's got a hell of a work ethic, he's smart, loves the game. The only serious negative is his arm strength, and it appears he's improved that somewhat (he's also not very mobile from what I've seen, though that's very secondary IMO). He lacks prototypical size, but he's got enough height and bulk to play in the league. And in this case, the reports of Johnson struggling in "live" action also play a part.

i thought johnson would hit the ground running under harbaugh. i haven't seen much of tolzien but if he can develop into a similar qb to shaun hill that would be great.

 

[MHSL82]

Speaking for myself, with regard to Tolzien, it's more than just the preseason performances. As much as anything, it's about the practice reports. The kid's got a hell of a work ethic, he's smart, loves the game. The only serious negative is his arm strength, and it appears he's improved that somewhat (he's also not very mobile from what I've seen, though that's very secondary IMO). He lacks prototypical size, but he's got enough height and bulk to play in the league. And in this case, the reports of Johnson struggling in "live" action also play a part.

Too bad Johnson is not practice squad eligible. I mean, I feel that most people assumed that ST would be PS because he was undrafted, the weak arm reports, Johnson has roots with Harbaugh, but to me, most significantly, we could still keep him on the PS. The default number 4. The way he's played though, I feel someone would claim him off the waiver wire more likely than Johnson. But with Johnson not being PS eligible, we'd need to keep him or cut ties until an injury to one of the QBs. (Yes, I got to 1500 posts before the regular season! JK)

 

[FourBeeDen]

I always found it odd that the media pundits seem to always place Johnson ahead of Tolzien during the OTA's when they are trying to project the 49ers' depth chart and their main reason why is because Johnson is familiar with Harbaugh's system stemming from their history @ SD. While that seems logical, they fail to realize that ST was with the 49ers last season and had a full year to acclimate himself with JH's system. Furthermore, it did not occur to them that JH's system when he was at SD, although similar, is not the same as when he was at Standford and again now that he is the HC of the 49ers. Through the years, Coach Harbaugh's system has changed and evolved to it's current form through the demands of team's personnel and the level of competition. The system has not been stagnant therefore, the system that Josh was familiar with is not the same as what the Niners' have right now. Tolzien having been exposed to the current system for 1 year, has an advantage over JJ...

 

[h0ckeysk83r]

I always found it odd that the media pundits seem to always place Johnson ahead of Tolzien during the OTA's when they are trying to project the 49ers' depth chart and their main reason why is because Johnson is familiar with Harbaugh's system stemming from their history @ SD. While that seems logical, they fail to realize that ST was with the 49ers last season and had a full year to acclimate himself with JH's system. Furthermore, it did not occur to them that JH's system when he was at SD, although similar, is not the same as when he was at Standford and again now that he is the HC of the 49ers. Through the years, Coach Harbaugh's system has changed and evolved to it's current form through the demands of team's personnel and the level of competition. The system has not been stagnant therefore, the system that Josh was familiar with is not the same as what the Niners' have right now. Tolzien having been exposed to the current system for 1 year, has an advantage over JJ...

great post

 

[Bemular]

Here is my take on the QB's after pre-season game one:

I wasn't at all impressed with Kaepernick or Johnson as QB's. Tolzien looked good, and if Palmer doesn't shit his pants on the drop his numbers would have been even better.

His only glaring mistake was the INT which looked identical to a couple INT's Smith threw vs. Indy in 2005. He gets credit for "trying" to make something happen but ultimately it was a boneheaded mistake.

I think Tolzien may be a better QB than either Colin or Josh from an accuracy standpoint, but the lack of intangibles could be his downfall. He has a weak arm, he appears to be immobile as well as indecisive. Translation, if accurate, then without a pocket and time to throw he is pretty much useless - However, with a pocket and time to throw I think he could shred defenses.

 

[bigpb72]

kaps Motion and slow decision making kills me but he dose looked improved dont get me wrong. I think all great qbs kno where there going to go with the ball before the play starts and have a back up plan. qb that struggle imo are the one's who think when the ball is snapped witch causes double clutching and missing open receivers. Tolzien playing with the 3rd string shows that behind a crappy OLine he could go 10-13 shows with time back there he might be special i truly believe if both him and kap where forced to start he would win more games and have better stats

 

[deep9er]

again, its only been one pre-season game. not surprising the board is all over Tolzien now, cause fans always overreact.

i'm happy as long as ONE of the back-ups play well, as opposed to all three struggling.

 

[numone9er]

again, its only been one pre-season game. not surprising the board is all over Tolzien now, cause fans always overreact.

i'm happy as long as ONE of the back-ups play well, as opposed to all three struggling.

Just for the record, I've been high on Tolzein for a while. I just want to see him get an opportunity at some point. In order for that to happen he pretty much has to beat out Josh Johnson.

 

[Bemular]

again, its only been one pre-season game. not surprising the board is all over Tolzien now, cause fans always overreact.

i'm happy as long as ONE of the back-ups play well, as opposed to all three struggling.

Deep, why do you often feel the need to disparage us, the fans? What is the point of doing that? Is there a specific decorum we "over-reacting fans" need to be following – Can you enlighten us, 'cause that would be great!

Btw, are you aware Tolzien kicked our ass last year in pre-season? So for most of us this isn't our first exposure to Tolzien, thus I think perhaps the only one over-reacting here is you.

 

[MHSL82]

Here is my take on the QB's after pre-season game one:

I wasn't at all impressed with Kaepernick or Johnson as QB's. Tolzien looked good, and if Palmer doesn't shit his pants on the drop his numbers would have been even better.

His only glaring mistake was the INT which looked identical to a couple INT's Smith threw vs. Indy in 2005. He gets credit for "trying" to make something happen but ultimately it was a boneheaded mistake.

I think Tolzien may be a better QB than either Colin or Josh from an accuracy standpoint, but the lack of intangibles could be his downfall. He has a weak arm, he appears to be immobile as well as indecisive. Translation, if accurate, then without a pocket and time to throw he is pretty much useless - However, with a pocket and time to throw I think he could shred defenses.

Two things that were similar with Tolzien's INT and Smith's INTs. One, he was hit while he threw. And two, it wasn't a good decision to throw it there. That could involve as it sometimes did with Smith in throwing when he should have tucked it or throwing the ball where you needed to have a clean shot (tighter windows go to hell when you get hit). Heck, even wide open passes are ruined by getting hit while throwing.

I haven't rewatched it yet - was it a problem of not tucking the ball or which receiver he was throwing it to that made it so bad?

 

[MHSL82]

I always found it odd that the media pundits seem to always place Johnson ahead of Tolzien during the OTA's when they are trying to project the 49ers' depth chart and their main reason why is because Johnson is familiar with Harbaugh's system stemming from their history @ SD. While that seems logical, they fail to realize that ST was with the 49ers last season and had a full year to acclimate himself with JH's system. Furthermore, it did not occur to them that JH's system when he was at SD, although similar, is not the same as when he was at Standford and again now that he is the HC of the 49ers. Through the years, Coach Harbaugh's system has changed and evolved to it's current form through the demands of team's personnel and the level of competition. The system has not been stagnant therefore, the system that Josh was familiar with is not the same as what the Niners' have right now. Tolzien having been exposed to the current system for 1 year, has an advantage over JJ...

Knowing the system longer is good and all but if it doesn't translate to better reads, passes, or other measurements of performance, the understanding of the system means basically nothing as far as reporting who has the nod - unless Harbaugh would promote him upon knowledge instead of performance. (Unless something like skills overrode the performance issues.) If Tolzien is out-practicing and/or out-playing in games, the fact that Johnson was Harbaugh's QB in San Diego State is worthless (I'm exaggerating a bit). It should have been a preliminary guess, then when they went out there, it should be based upon play. Alex knows our system better than a lot of QBs that might do better than he does here. If they were here and played better, the prediction on QB should be different.

I guess the question then is, is Tolzien out-practicing Johnson or is it just the first pre-season game that's in his favor?

 

[MHSL82]

kaps Motion and slow decision making kills me but he dose looked improved dont get me wrong. I think all great qbs kno where there going to go with the ball before the play starts and have a back up plan. qb that struggle imo are the one's who think when the ball is snapped witch causes double clutching and missing open receivers. Tolzien playing with the 3rd string shows that behind a crappy OLine he could go 10-13 shows with time back there he might be special i truly believe if both him and kap where forced to start he would win more games and have better stats

I know this is a bit of a broken record when it comes to QBs, but once Kaep gets the speed of the NFL, understands the playbook and defenses better, it may click. Some QBs are naturally slower thinkers, some never fix their motion, and some approach things the wrong way (process when the ball is snapped) throughout their short career. I don't know where Kaep is on this. Maybe he is just getting used to things and will become a faster thinker, maybe his motion will be fixed, maybe he will understand enough to know where he's going with the ball and his backup plan. But there are certain habits that are never grown out of, there are some mental barriers that are basically ever-present, etc. So who knows?

 

[Bemular]

Two things that were similar with Tolzien's INT and Smith's INTs. One, he was hit while he threw. And two, it wasn't a good decision to throw it there. That could involve as it sometimes did with Smith in throwing when he should have tucked it or throwing the ball where you needed to have a clean shot (tighter windows go to hell when you get hit). Heck, even wide open passes are ruined by getting hit while throwing.

I haven't rewatched it yet - was it a problem of not tucking the ball or which receiver he was throwing it to that made it so bad?

I just watched the play again for the second (and third and so on...) time and I have to make a retraction. The cause of the INT was much more the utter raping of our LT on the play, Mike Person - listed on the roster sheet as a G.

Anyway, Tolzien was barely into his hitch when he got hit, so there is plenty of room for forgiveness on that INT.