Projecting the 2017 QB Market

[Darrell Green Fan]

I already gave you that info. Brady and BB arrived in NE the same year, 2000. Since then Bilichick is 18-18 without Brady in the lineup in New England.

 

[Stymietee]

This Sunday we might get a real look at Kirk's ability to keep pace offensively against the Lions in their place. Granted their defense opens the door for Kirk to have a big day, but M. Stafford is having probably the best season of his career without a starting caliber running back. This game has all the earmarks of a potential shootout, if, and I emphasize IF, is becomes one and Kirk out duels Stafford, I would be impressed.

 

[reptec101]

I would be impressed.

I would only be shocked if he doesn't if it does become one.

 

[Stymietee]

I often wonder how much of the untethered admiration of Kirk comes from the fact that he wears our colors? NO, I'm not wishing that they let him go, or he walks as a result of not signing a tag. Nor am I saying that he is a bad QB. There's a lot of this season left to make the determination about all of that, but It would be interesting to see if some views of him would go unchanged if he played elsewhere, say for example within the division.

 

[j_y19]

I often wonder how much of the untethered admiration of Kirk comes from the fact that he wears our colors? NO, I'm not wishing that they let him go, or he walks as a result of not signing a tag. Nor am I saying that he is a bad QB. There's a lot of this season left to make the determination about all of that, but It would be interesting to see if some views of him would go unchanged if he played elsewhere, say for example within the division.

uh, yeah, some views would change. We are not atypical there.

 

[Breed]

Name one game he was the sole reason for losing? Did you read the post Keim had about him. He is top half if not upper third. No one is recommending you don't look for someone better down the road but you don't get rid of your best option at QB unless you have someone equal to or better.

 

[Breed]

Name one game he was the sole reason for losing? Did you read the post Keim had about him. He is top half if not upper third. No one is recommending you don't look for someone better down the road but you don't get rid of your best option at QB unless you have someone equal to or better.

If your post was referring to my post. I said biggest reason, not only reason. I was also playing more in general devil's advocate to a random QB. Not outright detractor to re-franchising or long term signing Cousins. In a few significant ways I rate KC's game against Philly as his best game as a professional.

Far as those stats Keim posted. Color me clearly not as impressed as others about KC's numbers at this point in time.

How in the fuck did I do that post that's above this one?

 

[Sportster 72]

I think the jersey color is everything Sty. Folks get confused if you root for someone that there may be more to it than the jersey. In my case I will say that is true. He was one of the guys I was hoping the Redskins would draft. So I do have a rooting interest. Find us a better QB and watch how fast I root for that new guy.

The only guys in football that I care about emotionally are guys I know from the area and love them for the guys they are.

At the same time I don't want to see the next Trent Green end up on another team. I don't know that he is that but other than one year he is better than anyone we have had in a long time.

 

[j_y19]

If your post was referring to my post. I said biggest reason, not only reason. I was also playing more in general devil's advocate to a random QB. Not outright detractor to re-franchising or long term signing Cousins. In a few significant ways I rate KC's game against Philly as his best game as a professional.

Far as those stats Keim posted. Color me clearly not as impressed as others about KC's numbers at this point in time.

How in the fuck did I do that post that's above this one?

I think a lot of folks aren't impressed by his numbers, what I am curious about is why? He really does have pretty good numbers, but they get overshadowed every time he makes a bone headed play. I think he also is struggling to live up to expectations he set with his play the second half of last year. I think we immediate fans are much harder on him that the rest of the league.

 

[Breed]

Average? We've won 8 out of the last 10 games. He ranks up there in top ten stats in percentage, yards and yards per attempt. Granted he makes some head scratching throws but show me a QB excluding maybe 3 or 4 that don't. I'll be waiting for your report. Btw,, even they do at times. You want Fitz here? How bout Osweiler? Maybe we can obtain the services of Hoyer? Heck, we already have McCoy... throw him in there and let Kirk waltz to another team. Be careful what you wish for.

Though I will agree,,, if you pay Kirk what he wants then how do you improve your line via FA's to make the running game better to make him better to make the team better. It's a conundrum that they will be faced with, obviously. Though a man of your intellectual prowess Im assuming you believe a guy like Mark Sanchez could prosper behind a great line. I disagree, respectfully. The Redskins blew it when they had the opportunity to sign Cousins mid last year to a level 2 base salary when he was tearing it up despite the worse running game in the league. Not an easy accomplishment in this league.

I tell ya what... Kirk Cousins will get paid whether it's by us or by another team. He's a top 10 QB in this league and that is better than any other QB you would start next year once you give him the boot. Becareful what you wish for.

Clown college? Trump University? God I hope our front office don't have your imagination.

Yeah, average. That seemed to be the gist of your post that I originally quoted.

but heres why they shouldn't kick him out of bed because of an average year. He's good enough to give you a chance. Yes, he gave Dallas the game and tried to give it to Baltimore, but he also plays well enough to bring home some wins.

Am I wrong in thinking that the above quote is alluding to a scenario. Where KC's play at times was good enough to be the main reason for some wins. But also bad enough at other times where it was the main contributor to some losses as well. And when factoring it all in, it turned out to be a decidedly average year/performance for KC?

If KC stays average like this

I took the above quoted portion as self-explanatory up to this point. It was immediately after where things got funky like penicillin with the quote below.

I say keep him pay him what he wants

My report as follows.
8 wins coming in 10 games all against bottom feeders, coulda beens, never wases and lower tier earns. I wanna see a win against a team that wears big boy pants week in, week out. So whether you were calling KC average, above average or even above that. Or pulling out stats and metrics saying KC is top 5 in "yadda yadda yadda" category. I'll remain largely unmoved by any and all of it.

What will move me though is seeing KC and the Skins do something they've never done before. At least not as members and team mates on the 2016 Washington Redskins. Like they did against Philly.

 

[Breed]

I think a lot of folks aren't impressed by his numbers, what I am curious about is why? He really does have pretty good numbers, but they get overshadowed every time he makes a bone headed play. I think he also is struggling to live up to expectations he set with his play the second half of last year. I think we immediate fans are much harder on him that the rest of the league.

I'm impressed......to an extent. You might be right far as self-struggles go. He's playing for what? 22 to 23 mill next year to 100+ mill over the next 7 to 10 years. As well as earning respect and who knows what else. I'll tell you what though. Whatever he's playing for, I'm rootin for him like a mothafucker.

 

[reptec101]

Yeah, average. That seemed to be the gist of your post that I originally quoted.



Am I wrong in thinking that the above quote is alluding to a scenario. Where KC's play at times was good enough to be the main reason for some wins. But also bad enough at other times where it was the main contributor to some losses as well. And when factoring it all in, it turned out to be a decidedly average year/performance for KC?



I took the above quoted portion as self-explanatory up to this point. It was immediately after where things got funky like penicillin with the quote below.



My report as follows.
8 wins coming in 10 games all against bottom feeders, coulda beens, never wases and lower tier earns. I wanna see a win against a team that wears big boy pants week in, week out. So whether you were calling KC average, above average or even above that. Or pulling out stats and metrics saying KC is top 5 in "yadda yadda yadda" category. I'll remain largely unmoved by any and all of it.

What will move me though is seeing KC and the Skins do something they've never done before. At least not as members and team mates on the 2016 Washington Redskins. Like they did against Philly.

Don't care what you're moved by... you lobby for the QB rollercoaster ride with Fitz and the Hoyers passing thru and ill lobby for a steady fixure at QB for the years to come... btw,,, we have one... and another thing...
I'm so effin tired of hearing this shit. Everytime we win a game it's ALWAYS against a team that either sucks, didn't play their best game, or we just got lucky. It's effin incredible. Just beat a 2-0 Giants team,, a 3-0 Ravens team and a 3-1 Eagles team. I don't give a shit what their records are now... they were formidable opponents at the time we played em who ALL were favored to kick our ass... what we do,,, we kicked theirs. Seems to me guys like you will never be happy... keep replacing parts until we find a winning way.... FYI.. been doin that for the last 25 years. Hasn't worked out well... for me anyway. Jeepers. Be happy we seem to have a QB who has started to win more than he loses.

 

[Breed]

Don't care what you're moved by... you lobby for the QB rollercoaster ride with Fitz and the Hoyers passing thru and ill lobby for a steady fixure at QB for the years to come... btw,,, we have one... and another thing...
I'm so effin tired of hearing this shit. Everytime we win a game it's ALWAYS against a team that either sucks, didn't play their best game, or we just got lucky. It's effin incredible. Just beat a 2-0 Giants team,, a 3-0 Ravens team and a 3-1 Eagles team. I don't give a shit what their records are now
... they were formidable opponents at the time we played em who ALL were favored to kick our ass... what we do,,, we kicked theirs. Seems to me guys like you will never be happy... keep replacing parts until we find a winning way.... FYI.. been doin that for the last 25 years. Hasn't worked out well... for me anyway. Jeepers. Be happy we seem to have a QB who has started to win more than he loses.

Hey man you can just say you were wrong in saying you'd pay an average QB whatever he wants.

 

[reptec101]

Hey man you can just say you were wrong in saying you'd pay an average QB whatever he wants.

Of course I wouldn't pay an average QB what he want's, but I wouldn't let a QB who seems to be above average walk to another team so easily, but saying that, they might not have a choice. He might say screw ya'll. Somebody will want him and somebody will pay him. So far this year his numbers are comparable to Dalton, Luck and Flacco... all highly paid QB's... and those are just a few I looked at... the rest I'm certain he's far better than and some Im certain he's far below than. Bottom line he's a decent QB that you can win with in this league. Not gonna argue back and forth. Lets just hope he continue to improve and live with the results after the season. Keep him or lose him. I'm just tired of turn-over. Starting over. Peace.

 

[Breed]

Of course I wouldn't pay an average QB what he want's, but I wouldn't let a QB who seems to be above average walk to another team so easily, but saying that, they might not have a choice. He might say screw ya'll. Somebody will want him and somebody will pay him. So far this year his numbers are comparable to Dalton, Luck and Flacco... all highly paid QB's... and those are just a few I looked at... the rest I'm certain he's far better than and some Im certain he's far below than. Bottom line he's a decent QB that you can win with in this league. Not gonna argue back and forth. Lets just hope he continue to improve and live with the results after the season. Keep him or lose him. I'm just tired of turn-over. Starting over. Peace.

Look homey, our signals got crossed The way I was reading what you said was that KC is pretty much an average QB that you'd go above and beyond to keep. Right now I'd say he's above average, and that seems to be what you're saying as well.

As far as numbers go. While I wsill certainly use them to support a position or to dispute a position somneone may hold. Whedn it comes to QBs. I don't hold stats/numbers in the same regard as I would another position. Lets take your example above you saying KC's numbers are comparable to Dalton, Luck and Flacco. OK, that's cool from a what will KC or what should KC get paid standpoint cuz truth be told. I really don't care what he gets paid except for these instances. Will what KC gets paid prevent the Redskins from A) re-signing a player I think they re-sign or B) prevent the Redskins from acquiring a FA I would like them to sign. C) Will KC's contract be such that if another QB shows to be more capable than him in OTAs, preseason etc. Will it prevent Skins from starting the other QB.

Now we know all know C is tricky and that KC fell victim to that scenario while Griffin was here. As KC imo should've started a full year sooner than he did.

Far as B and A go. The only persons who've been able to really fuck off the Skins cap-wise is this triflin dickhead john Mara after siccing his triflin ass0 henchman, Goodell, on the Skins. So in essenc e I'm not worried too much about either A, B or C. So either re-franchise KC at 23 or whatever million for a year if he doesn't edase fears that he's the long term solution or if he does prove that he is. Back brinks truck up tpo his house and go all in.

Back to the 3 QBs you've mentioned.

IMO KC is not in Luck's class and he might never be regardless how the stats shake out. I think Luck could be special. If the Colts brain trust doesn't get him beat the hell up first. And KC doesn't have to be Luck or on par with Luck to lead the Skins to a SB title.

Flacco is a funky case, but I'll give him this. When it was time for the rubber to hit the road. Flacco handled his business. If KC could trend in a similar fashion and at present that seems to be the course he is most on of the 3 QBs you mentioned I'd be OK with that. Like reallly really OK for sure.

If KC never gets any better than Dalton, than fuck it, they could cut his ass tomorrow and start about the business of finding a QB who will have a possibility of leading the Skins to a title. Unlike Dalton who's not leading the Bengals to a title and imo. Had overall weapons of a run game, pass catchers and defense necessary to do so. At the very least he should've won a ;playoff game swith some of the squads he's had.

Personally I'd love seeing some of the same moxie KC and the team as a whole displayed in the Philly game myself. Even moreso in some ways than gaudy stats or blow out victories. As that will prepare them better to handle close, tough, hard contested games. As opposed to blowing everyone out and not hiting any or many speed bumps.

 

[j_y19]

Here's the thing about KC. Physically, he can do it. He has the tools. He may not have the strongest arm, but he can make all the throws with authority. His issue is making mental mistakes. Especially under duress. He still has too many of those mistakes that result in bad decisions. But the good news is he has shown growth in bouncing back from these errors. Remember a few years back when one INT would just lead to more as he pressed harder? Well, those days appear to be gone. KC is a smart guy. There is no reason to not expect that as he matures and gains more experience, we see a decrease in these mental brain farts. When he gets there, he may be a pretty darn QB for a team ready to make a deep run. Kinda like the redskins in the next year or two.

 

[reptec101]

Look homey, our signals got crossed The way I was reading what you said was that KC is pretty much an average QB that you'd go above and beyond to keep. Right now I'd say he's above average, and that seems to be what you're saying as well.

As far as numbers go. While I wsill certainly use them to support a position or to dispute a position somneone may hold. Whedn it comes to QBs. I don't hold stats/numbers in the same regard as I would another position. Lets take your example above you saying KC's numbers are comparable to Dalton, Luck and Flacco. OK, that's cool from a what will KC or what should KC get paid standpoint cuz truth be told. I really don't care what he gets paid except for these instances. Will what KC gets paid prevent the Redskins from A) re-signing a player I think they re-sign or B) prevent the Redskins from acquiring a FA I would like them to sign. C) Will KC's contract be such that if another QB shows to be more capable than him in OTAs, preseason etc. Will it prevent Skins from starting the other QB.

Now we know all know C is tricky and that KC fell victim to that scenario while Griffin was here. As KC imo should've started a full year sooner than he did.

Far as B and A go. The only persons who've been able to really fuck off the Skins cap-wise is this triflin dickhead john Mara after siccing his triflin ass0 henchman, Goodell, on the Skins. So in essenc e I'm not worried too much about either A, B or C. So either re-franchise KC at 23 or whatever million for a year if he doesn't edase fears that he's the long term solution or if he does prove that he is. Back brinks truck up tpo his house and go all in.

Back to the 3 QBs you've mentioned.

IMO KC is not in Luck's class and he might never be regardless how the stats shake out. I think Luck could be special. If the Colts brain trust doesn't get him beat the hell up first. And KC doesn't have to be Luck or on par with Luck to lead the Skins to a SB title.

Flacco is a funky case, but I'll give him this. When it was time for the rubber to hit the road. Flacco handled his business. If KC could trend in a similar fashion and at present that seems to be the course he is most on of the 3 QBs you mentioned I'd be OK with that. Like reallly really OK for sure.

If KC never gets any better than Dalton, than fuck it, they could cut his ass tomorrow and start about the business of finding a QB who will have a possibility of leading the Skins to a title. Unlike Dalton who's not leading the Bengals to a title and imo. Had overall weapons of a run game, pass catchers and defense necessary to do so. At the very least he should've won a ;playoff game swith some of the squads he's had.

Personally I'd love seeing some of the same moxie KC and the team as a whole displayed in the Philly game myself. Even moreso in some ways than gaudy stats or blow out victories. As that will prepare them better to handle close, tough, hard contested games. As opposed to blowing everyone out and not hiting any or many speed bumps.

Goin back over my original post that got this whole thing rolling I can see how I misled you from what I typed. My bad. Let's just hope KC can keep getting better and lead us to some pay dirt. Just hope SM get's this one right whatever direction they go.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

These 2 articles highlight the Kirk debate quite well IMO

Is it obvious yet? Here’s the case for Kirk Cousins.

Excerpt

How can Kirk Cousins finally wrap up this endless referendum on whether he’s Washington‘s quarterback of the future? Seven more games like Sunday’s should get it done.

Consider:

● Washington’s offense was without left tackle Trent Williams — perhaps the team’s best player — and wide receiver DeSean Jackson — one of its scariest weapons.

● The Redskins were facing a Minnesota defense that hadn’t given up more than 23 points in its previous 13 games.

● And Cousins was going head-to-head with the face of NFL quarterback desperation. Sam Bradford is a fine-enough passer. His preseason acquisition also cost the Vikings two draft picks, including a first-rounder. That should show you just how terrifying below-adequate quarterback play can be.

So how did Cousins respond? With 60 minutes of distilled competence: a beverage that won’t get you drunk, but will keep you nice and cheerful. He was 22 of 33 for 262 yards, two touchdowns, and no interceptions in a 26-20 win. He led a go-ahead fourth quarter drive for the third straight game — and for the fifth sixth time in Washington’s nine games. And he sure didn’t seem outclassed by that former top overall draft pick, the guy who was worth a first-rounder this fall.

Am I wrong?

“You’re not wrong at all,” Coach Jay Gruden said. “He just keeps stacking game after game after game, and learning from each one. It’s been over a year and a half as a starter. And he can get better, but you’re right. I don’t know why there’s so much disbelief and doubt for what he’s done, what he’s accomplished already. I don’t know what people expect.”

The doubt was laid out by my friend Jerry Brewer last month. There’s a case, Jerry wrote, that Cousins “is an empty stat collector,” a product of a pass-heavy offense stacked with plenty of open receivers. There’s a case that Cousins’s gaudy numbers cover up a flimsier reality, that he makes too many mistakes and misses too many chances to justify a multi-year, mega-bucks deal. There’s a case that all those weekly edits in the media guides — Cousins has the NFL’s fifth-most passing yards since the start of last year and is on pace to shatter his own franchise record — are diminished by Washington’s won-loss record.





Kirk Cousins puts up great numbers. That doesn’t make him a great quarterback.

Excerpt

Here’s where the Cousins conundrum is unprecedented: Name a quarterback in league history who crushed numerous franchise records in his first year as The Guy, only to increase his production the next year — to a historic level — only to remain a player who inspires moderate enthusiasm about his long-term future with his current team. You can’t name another quarterback. Teams have moved on from highly productive quarterbacks, but not at those lofty numbers.

Still, there are more layers to consider.

Barring injury or a dramatic change in Coach Jay Gruden’s pass-happy offense, Cousins is almost certain to reach 4,500 passing yards this season. That has happened only 48 times in NFL history. But Cousins is on pace for just 24 touchdown passes. Of those 48 quarterback performances of at least 4,500 passing yards, there have been just three instances in which a QB threw for fewer than 25 touchdowns.

This is how you build the case that Cousins is an empty stat collector. This is how you figure he is the creation of Gruden and an offensive staff that runs one of the most clever systems in the NFL. This is how you look at Washington’s poor red-zone performance this season and conclude that the quarterback doesn’t do enough when the passing windows are tighter and daring decision-making and moxie factor into performance.

 

[j_y19]

And I go back to my original question. Who you gonna get that plays equal to or better? And what will that cost you? This team is being built to be a serious contender in the not so distant future. Maybe even next year. So if you get rid of a guy that has proven he can efficiently run this offense and get the ball into the playmakers hands regularly, and replace him with a journeyman or a rookie, you will set this franchise back a couple of years and potentially miss out on the prime years of those playmakers like Reed, Crowder, Garcon, Jackson, and Davis as well as a budding elite OL and their significant contributors like Moses, Long, Williams, and Sherff.

Please, let me know who we can get to replace him and not set us back. I'm waiting with baited breath.

 

[gkekoa]

These 2 articles highlight the Kirk debate quite well IMO

Is it obvious yet? Here’s the case for Kirk Cousins.

Excerpt

How can Kirk Cousins finally wrap up this endless referendum on whether he’s Washington‘s quarterback of the future? Seven more games like Sunday’s should get it done.

Consider:

● Washington’s offense was without left tackle Trent Williams — perhaps the team’s best player — and wide receiver DeSean Jackson — one of its scariest weapons.

● The Redskins were facing a Minnesota defense that hadn’t given up more than 23 points in its previous 13 games.

● And Cousins was going head-to-head with the face of NFL quarterback desperation. Sam Bradford is a fine-enough passer. His preseason acquisition also cost the Vikings two draft picks, including a first-rounder. That should show you just how terrifying below-adequate quarterback play can be.

So how did Cousins respond? With 60 minutes of distilled competence: a beverage that won’t get you drunk, but will keep you nice and cheerful. He was 22 of 33 for 262 yards, two touchdowns, and no interceptions in a 26-20 win. He led a go-ahead fourth quarter drive for the third straight game — and for the fifth sixth time in Washington’s nine games. And he sure didn’t seem outclassed by that former top overall draft pick, the guy who was worth a first-rounder this fall.

Am I wrong?

“You’re not wrong at all,” Coach Jay Gruden said. “He just keeps stacking game after game after game, and learning from each one. It’s been over a year and a half as a starter. And he can get better, but you’re right. I don’t know why there’s so much disbelief and doubt for what he’s done, what he’s accomplished already. I don’t know what people expect.”

The doubt was laid out by my friend Jerry Brewer last month. There’s a case, Jerry wrote, that Cousins “is an empty stat collector,” a product of a pass-heavy offense stacked with plenty of open receivers. There’s a case that Cousins’s gaudy numbers cover up a flimsier reality, that he makes too many mistakes and misses too many chances to justify a multi-year, mega-bucks deal. There’s a case that all those weekly edits in the media guides — Cousins has the NFL’s fifth-most passing yards since the start of last year and is on pace to shatter his own franchise record — are diminished by Washington’s won-loss record.





Kirk Cousins puts up great numbers. That doesn’t make him a great quarterback.

Excerpt

Here’s where the Cousins conundrum is unprecedented: Name a quarterback in league history who crushed numerous franchise records in his first year as The Guy, only to increase his production the next year — to a historic level — only to remain a player who inspires moderate enthusiasm about his long-term future with his current team. You can’t name another quarterback. Teams have moved on from highly productive quarterbacks, but not at those lofty numbers.

Still, there are more layers to consider.

Barring injury or a dramatic change in Coach Jay Gruden’s pass-happy offense, Cousins is almost certain to reach 4,500 passing yards this season. That has happened only 48 times in NFL history. But Cousins is on pace for just 24 touchdown passes. Of those 48 quarterback performances of at least 4,500 passing yards, there have been just three instances in which a QB threw for fewer than 25 touchdowns.

This is how you build the case that Cousins is an empty stat collector. This is how you figure he is the creation of Gruden and an offensive staff that runs one of the most clever systems in the NFL. This is how you look at Washington’s poor red-zone performance this season and conclude that the quarterback doesn’t do enough when the passing windows are tighter and daring decision-making and moxie factor into performance.

So, if Gruden's offense is so [o clever and gets all the credit, what happens to his cleverness in the RZ?