pre TC and TC thread commies 1st

[duke1861]

I think ragging on Turner is premature. He hasn't had a QB since he has been here and the WR position has been poor.

My ragging on him is due to the fact that he wasn't qualified for the job to begin with. He was fired as the QB coach in Minnesota and had to take a college Offensive Analyst job at Michigan in 2017. At Minny, the passing attack under his QBs were ranked 28th, 31st, and 18th. The Vikings had enough and fired him in early 2017.

Rivera hired him as a QB coach in CAR and he was below average there with his QBs (16th and 21st in the league) in 2018 and 2019. He was named interim OC in Carolina for the rest of the 2019 season. Seems like he has struggled in his QB coaching roles, as such, it was confusing as to why Rivera hired him. O'Connell and other candidates who were considered had more experience.

In 2 years in WSH, Turner has proven little to nothing. His offense averaged 20.9 points per game in 2020, which was 25th in the league. In 2021, his offense averaged 19.7 points per game, which was 24th in the league. Our offense actually took a step back in points per game average from 2020 to 2021. All that being said, Rivera signed him to an extension in early 2022. Instead of looking to upgrade, he gave a coach with substandard results an extension.

I understand that being "loyal" to the coach mentality to a certain extent. However, how long do we give someone before we form an opinion about them? 1, 2, 5 years? I have seen all I need to see personally. I saw no real improvement from 2020 to 2021 and the play calling has been disappointing to say the least. All I am saying is that Rivera had better options and he didn't take them. We are now going into year 3 so results should have been manifest by this time. I am thinking that Rivera has a 5-year rebuild timeframe in mind obviously. If fans are supposed to be excited about Turner, what evidence can be provided to show that? He might be the next Sean McVay or Andy Reid, that being said, his NFL coaching results to this point have been very lacking and the data shows that.

 

[Sportster 72]

My ragging on him is due to the fact that he wasn't qualified for the job to begin with. He was fired as the QB coach in Minnesota and had to take a college Offensive Analyst job at Michigan in 2017. At Minny, the passing attack under his QBs were ranked 28th, 31st, and 18th. The Vikings had enough and fired him in early 2017.

Rivera hired him as a QB coach in CAR and he was below average there with his QBs (16th and 21st in the league) in 2018 and 2019. He was named interim OC in Carolina for the rest of the 2019 season. Seems like he has struggled in his QB coaching roles, as such, it was confusing as to why Rivera hired him. O'Connell and other candidates who were considered had more experience.

In 2 years in WSH, Turner has proven little to nothing. His offense averaged 20.9 points per game in 2020, which was 25th in the league. In 2021, his offense averaged 19.7 points per game, which was 24th in the league. Our offense actually took a step back in points per game average from 2020 to 2021. All that being said, Rivera signed him to an extension in early 2022. Instead of looking to upgrade, he gave a coach with substandard results an extension.

I understand that being "loyal" to the coach mentality to a certain extent. However, how long do we give someone before we form an opinion about them? 1, 2, 5 years? I have seen all I need to see personally. I saw no real improvement from 2020 to 2021 and the play calling has been disappointing to say the least. All I am saying is that Rivera had better options and he didn't take them. We are now going into year 3 so results should have been manifest by this time. I am thinking that Rivera has a 5-year rebuild timeframe in mind obviously. If fans are supposed to be excited about Turner, what evidence can be provided to show that? He might be the next Sean McVay or Andy Reid, that being said, his NFL coaching results to this point have been very lacking and the data shows that.

Where do you get this crap about "loyalty to the coach." You say stupid shit like that all the time. His father is Norv Turner. My guess is he is at least fairly competent. I don't follow Carolina but I do know they had QB issues. He came here and he has had Haskins, a broken Smith and a guy sleeping on his sisters couch. Do you follow Logan Paulsen at all? He likes Turner. I am pretty sure he knows a few things about football. You forgot to say he was the QBs coach when Minnesota won the NFC North in 2015. For the record Zimmer was going through pretty close to a new OC every year until he was fired. If you are going to provide evidence provide all the evidence.

 

[duke1861]

Where do you get this crap about "loyalty to the coach." You say stupid shit like that all the time. His father is Norv Turner. My guess is he is at least fairly competent. I don't follow Carolina but I do know they had QB issues. He came here and he has had Haskins, a broken Smith and a guy sleeping on his sisters couch. Do you follow Logan Paulsen at all? He likes Turner. I am pretty sure he knows a few things about football. You forgot to say he was the QBs coach when Minnesota won the NFC North in 2015. For the record Zimmer was going through pretty close to a new OC every year until he was fired. If you are going to provide evidence provide all the evidence.

I was quoting Dean regarding "loyalty". That is what he has advised me. We have had discussions regarding coaching moves and changes and he reminded me that he was "loyal" to the coaches. The remark was addressing that type of mentality. Perhaps Dean can clarify what he means when he states this to me.

Yes, I am very familiar with Norv Turner...that doesn't mean Scott is Norv Turner Part 2. I simply laid out his history as a QB coach/OC.
Yes, I did provide his numbers as the Minnesota QB coach in my first paragraph. To clarify, in 2015, Minnesota was ranked 31st out of 32 in passing yardage. I have provided the link below for your reference. I was not aware that there were frequent changes in the OC position. I simply pulled the numbers.

No, I do not follow Paulsen. I am sure he has his opinion about these things like everything else. I take your word for it.

Not to be ignorant or argue needlessly, but to confirm:

In Minnesota, Turner was subject to new offensive coordinators each year.
In Carolina, he dealt with QB issues.
In Washington, he came to the job with QB problems from the start.

If this is the case, then he has had the most unlucky start to his NFL football career. He might want to look for another profession...LOL.
I still believe Rivera should have hired O'Connell and said that at the time. I think the game has passed Rivera by and I do not trust his coaching choices. He has NOT had more than 7 wins since the 2017 season. That should concern all of us.

Once again, it appears that I am in the minority and I understand that. I was against the Rivera hire from the start, as you have said, and nothing has changed my mind at this time. The question remains, why should I or anyone else be excited for a Turner led offense?

2015 NFL Team Total Offense Stats | ESPN

Visit ESPN to view 2015 NFL team stats

www.espn.com

 

[Sportster 72]

I was quoting Dean regarding "loyalty". That is what he has advised me. We have had discussions regarding coaching moves and changes and he reminded me that he was "loyal" to the coaches. The remark was addressing that type of mentality. Perhaps Dean can clarify what he means when he states this to me.

Yes, I am very familiar with Norv Turner...that doesn't mean Scott is Norv Turner Part 2. I simply laid out his history as a QB coach/OC.
Yes, I did provide his numbers as the Minnesota QB coach in my first paragraph. To clarify, in 2015, Minnesota was ranked 31st out of 32 in passing yardage. I have provided the link below for your reference. I was not aware that there were frequent changes in the OC position. I simply pulled the numbers.

No, I do not follow Paulsen. I am sure he has his opinion about these things like everything else. I take your word for it.

Not to be ignorant or argue needlessly, but to confirm:

In Minnesota, Turner was subject to new offensive coordinators each year.
In Carolina, he dealt with QB issues.
In Washington, he came to the job with QB problems from the start.

If this is the case, then he has had the most unlucky start to his NFL football career. He might want to look for another profession...LOL.
I still believe Rivera should have hired O'Connell and said that at the time. I think the game has passed Rivera by and I do not trust his coaching choices. He has NOT had more than 7 wins since the 2017 season. That should concern all of us.

Once again, it appears that I am in the minority and I understand that. I was against the Rivera hire from the start, as you have said, and nothing has changed my mind at this time. The question remains, why should I or anyone else be excited for a Turner led offense?

2015 NFL Team Total Offense Stats | ESPN

Visit ESPN to view 2015 NFL team stats

www.espn.com

I am not loyal to any coaches unless it is warranted. Of course the team had to coaches in Marty, Gibbs, the Shanahans, McVay and that did little for the team.

Zimmer hired a new OC almost every year he was HC in Minnesota. Turner was QB coach in 2015 when they won the NFC North Division, his father was OC. The following year there were co-OCs as Pat Shurmur joined the party. Every year after that until he was fired Zimmer hired a new OC. Pretty stable outfit huh?

Turner was OC for one year in Carolina .... Newton started two games, Allen started 12 games, Grier started 2 games. I would call that issues.

Year one in Washington, Haskins started 6 games, Smith started 6 games and Allen started 4. Lots of stability there.
Year two Heinicke essentially played the entire season. What would we call him, a backup?
For those two years they had one starting caliber WR.

"If this is the case, then he has had the most unlucky start to his NFL football career. He might want to look for another profession...LOL."
My comment to what you said above is I did the homework. All you had was he got fired by Minnesota ... you took the part that supported your opinion only.

Kind of surprised you didn't know who Logan Paulsen is since he was a Redskin TE for five years.

Conclusion: I don't know if Scott Turner is going to be a middle of the pack OC or not. The fact that Logan likes him and if you watched any of Logan's stuff he breaks down plays and explains his reasoning. My guess is he has a mediocre career here at best because this is a poorly run organization. Remember ... Kyle Shanahan didn't know anything either? McVay was allowed to walk. O'Connell was allowed to walk, this was on RR. I too would like Kyle Smith to still be here and that is on RR.

 

[skinsdad62]

 

[duke1861]

I am not loyal to any coaches unless it is warranted. Of course the team had to coaches in Marty, Gibbs, the Shanahans, McVay and that did little for the team.

Zimmer hired a new OC almost every year he was HC in Minnesota. Turner was QB coach in 2015 when they won the NFC North Division, his father was OC. The following year there were co-OCs as Pat Shurmur joined the party. Every year after that until he was fired Zimmer hired a new OC. Pretty stable outfit huh?

Turner was OC for one year in Carolina .... Newton started two games, Allen started 12 games, Grier started 2 games. I would call that issues.

Year one in Washington, Haskins started 6 games, Smith started 6 games and Allen started 4. Lots of stability there.
Year two Heinicke essentially played the entire season. What would we call him, a backup?
For those two years they had one starting caliber WR.

"If this is the case, then he has had the most unlucky start to his NFL football career. He might want to look for another profession...LOL."
My comment to what you said above is I did the homework. All you had was he got fired by Minnesota ... you took the part that supported your opinion only.

Kind of surprised you didn't know who Logan Paulsen is since he was a Redskin TE for five years.

Conclusion: I don't know if Scott Turner is going to be a middle of the pack OC or not. The fact that Logan likes him and if you watched any of Logan's stuff he breaks down plays and explains his reasoning. My guess is he has a mediocre career here at best because this is a poorly run organization. Remember ... Kyle Shanahan didn't know anything either? McVay was allowed to walk. O'Connell was allowed to walk, this was on RR. I too would like Kyle Smith to still be here and that is on RR.

I understand. Yes, some coaches deserve and should have loyalty. I am sure most fanbases would agree with that. With Dean, he confessed that he is "loyal" to our coaches and we have no choice but to trust the front office. I could not be in stronger disagreement. Rivera has not earned my loyalty and I think he has made many questionable decisions. Obviously, Dean and some others disagree with me. I don't follow anything blindly.

Yes, Minnesota won the NFC North in 2015. In 2015 specifically, they had the 31st ranked passing offense. We can blame the OC, the coach playing musical chairs at OC, Turner, or their QBs for the poor performance. The bottom line is Turner was the QB coach for the 31st-ranked passing offense. I will agree that it appears that there is some instability. That being said, Turner had to have some responsibility in the matter. Maybe he was fired as a scapegoat? Perhaps he was fired for poor performance? A Minnesota fan will have to chime in on this. I did do the homework and provided statistics and a link for my statements.

Actually, as I stated, Turner was only interim OC for 4 games in Carolina in 2019. He replaced his father if I am not mistaken. I have provided the link for your reference.

Yes, Turner has had instability at the QB position here in Washington. We can blame Gruden or Rivera for that. That being said, we appear to be painting the picture of Turner being a constant victim his entire NFL coaching career. I am not sure if you are saying that or not. As I have said, our fanbase has latched on to the victimhood mentality. I am sure you have seen that in my discussions with Dean. COVID, injuries, etc, there is always an excuse as to why we underperform. There is no accountability, it is always something or somebody else's fault outside of Rivera, coaches, and players.

Yes, I know who Logan Paulsen is. That was not your question. You asked if I "follow" him. As I said, I do not. Paulsen was the viking lookng TE we had for a few years. I do not follow him on Twitter or anything. I have no clue what his thoughts on Turner are, and will take your word for it.

As I said, Turner could be the next Andy Reid or McVay, however, at this time, he has not shown that at all. Given his body of work and resume, I do not feel he is the right QC for us. I agree on McVay, but we would have had to fire Gruden and promote McVay to be HC. Obviously, we should have done that, but at the time, I don't believe it was on the table. I agree on O'Connell was the better choice. While I didn't agree with everything Kyle Smith did in free agency, he was an elite drafting mind. He is missed for sure.

I agree with you on Shanahan, however, he had a mentor in his father to guide him along the way as the coach. Mike Shanahan is one of the best offensive minds in the history of the NFL. I am sure he had a heavy hand in the offense planning/strategy and would help Kyle out quite a bit. Turner doesn't have that relationship/set up as Rivera is a defensive coach.

Scott Turner (American football) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[deanpet21]

I understand. Yes, some coaches deserve and should have loyalty. I am sure most fanbases would agree with that. With Dean, he confessed that he is "loyal" to our coaches and we have no choice but to trust the front office. I could not be in stronger disagreement. Rivera has not earned my loyalty and I think he has made many questionable decisions. Obviously, Dean and some others disagree with me. I don't follow anything blindly.

Yes, Minnesota won the NFC North in 2015. In 2015 specifically, they had the 31st ranked passing offense. We can blame the OC, the coach playing musical chairs at OC, Turner, or their QBs for the poor performance. The bottom line is Turner was the QB coach for the 31st-ranked passing offense. I will agree that it appears that there is some instability. That being said, Turner had to have some responsibility in the matter. Maybe he was fired as a scapegoat? Perhaps he was fired for poor performance? A Minnesota fan will have to chime in on this. I did do the homework and provided statistics and a link for my statements.

Actually, as I stated, Turner was only interim OC for 4 games in Carolina in 2019. He replaced his father if I am not mistaken. I have provided the link for your reference.

Yes, Turner has had instability at the QB position here in Washington. We can blame Gruden or Rivera for that. That being said, we appear to be painting the picture of Turner being a constant victim his entire NFL coaching career. I am not sure if you are saying that or not. As I have said, our fanbase has latched on to the victimhood mentality. I am sure you have seen that in my discussions with Dean. COVID, injuries, etc, there is always an excuse as to why we underperform. There is no accountability, it is always something or somebody else's fault outside of Rivera, coaches, and players.

Yes, I know who Logan Paulsen is. That was not your question. You asked if I "follow" him. As I said, I do not. Paulsen was the viking lookng TE we had for a few years. I do not follow him on Twitter or anything. I have no clue what his thoughts on Turner are, and will take your word for it.

As I said, Turner could be the next Andy Reid or McVay, however, at this time, he has not shown that at all. Given his body of work and resume, I do not feel he is the right QC for us. I agree on McVay, but we would have had to fire Gruden and promote McVay to be HC. Obviously, we should have done that, but at the time, I don't believe it was on the table. I agree on O'Connell was the better choice. While I didn't agree with everything Kyle Smith did in free agency, he was an elite drafting mind. He is missed for sure.

I agree with you on Shanahan, however, he had a mentor in his father to guide him along the way as the coach. Mike Shanahan is one of the best offensive minds in the history of the NFL. I am sure he had a heavy hand in the offense planning/strategy and would help Kyle out quite a bit. Turner doesn't have that relationship/set up as Rivera is a defensive coach.

Scott Turner (American football) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So its an excuse that Tuner has not done well with Haskins, Smith, Fitz(Who was out for the year in Week 1), and TH(Who was sitting on his coach last year and had showed nothing in the NFL when he played). So its an excuse that the offense was bad? You got to be kidding me Duke. How in the world can you judge Turner fairly with those QB's?

 

[duke1861]

So its an excuse that Tuner has not done well with Haskins, Smith, Fitz(Who was out for the year in Week 1), and TH(Who was sitting on his coach last year and had showed nothing in the NFL when he played). So its an excuse that the offense was bad? You got to be kidding me Duke. How in the world can you judge Turner fairly with those QB's?

I said looking at his full resume Dean. You only cherry-picked his results in WSH. What was the reason behind the poor performance in Minnesota and Carolina? We discussed the Minnesota and Carolina situations as well. There were some circumstances out of his control in Minny and CAR.

That being said, he has 3 stops on his resume and it appears the opinion is that he is a victim in all 3 situations. So, in 3 stops, he has yielded poor results but NONE of it is his fault? This is starting to sound strange to me. It is like someone who has had 3 marriages/divorces and ALL issues were the other party's fault.

I have not seen 1 person who has attempted to assign accountability to Turner at all. It is everyone elses fault in Minny, CAR and now in WSH. Why people are defending him tooth and nail is beyond me.

Question, the QB situation in 2021 was quite poor as you said. Who is responsible for the poor QB situation Dean? Who made the decision to bring in a 38-year-old Fitz with no backup plan? Is it Rivera, Gruden, Snyder, Allen? Or just bad luck...again.

 

[deanpet21]

I said looking at his full resume Dean. You only cherry-picked his results in WSH. What was the reason behind the poor performance in Minnesota and Carolina? We discussed the Minnesota and Carolina situations as well. There were some circumstances out of his control in Minny and CAR.

That being said, he has 3 stops on his resume and it appears the opinion is that he is a victim in all 3 situations. So, in 3 stops, he has yielded poor results but NONE of it is his fault? This is starting to sound strange to me. It is like someone who has had 3 marriages/divorces and ALL issues were the other party's fault.

I have not seen 1 person who has attempted to assign accountability to Turner at all. It is everyone elses fault in Minny, CAR and now in WSH. Why people are defending him tooth and nail is beyond me.

Question, the QB situation in 2021 was quite poor as you said. Who is responsible for the poor QB situation Dean? Who made the decision to bring in a 38-year-old Fitz with no backup plan? Is it Rivera, Gruden, Snyder, Allen? Or just bad luck...again.

Im judging him on what he has done HERE. With our QB;s you cant fairly judge the guy. That's right, I forgot, its RR fault that Fitz got hurt in Week 1. Wentz gives him a real NFL QN that you can judge him by. Now lets see what he can do.

 

[skinsdad62]

Commanders 2022 7th round spotlight: DB Christian Holmes, Oklahoma State / Missouri

A mid 7th round pick looking to break into the Commanders roster as a backup and special teams player

www.hogshaven.com

i think he is a typical 7th round guy and if he can get up to speed in the defense and special teams he could stick .i think he is destined for the PS

 

[Sportster 72]

"we appear to be painting the picture of Turner being a constant victim his entire NFL coaching career."

Turn off the soap operas.

 

[duke1861]

Im judging him on what he has done HERE. With our QB;s you cant fairly judge the guy. That's right, I forgot, its RR fault that Fitz got hurt in Week 1. Wentz gives him a real NFL QN that you can judge him by. Now lets see what he can do.

It is not Rivera's fault that Fitz got hurt. I said that the strategy was flawed and I was right. Bringing in an older QB and having no real back up QB is on Rivera. Older QBs are more injury prone, I am sure you can agree with that.

I believe 99% of our disagreements occur due to the viewing of the entire picture of a player/coach. I look at past performance as an indicator of future results. In the case of Wentz, Rivera, and Turner, all 3 have poor statistical results in their previous stops and even here in WSH. If you want to ignore those facts and statistics, then it is difficult to have any type of fruitful discussion.

Simply saying "let's have hope" and "stay positive" doesn't erase the historical issues of those 3...in this case, Turner. It is irresponsible to ignore what occurred in Minnesota and CAR. Same with Wentz. In your case, you continue to purposely ignore and cover up the firings, trades, and poor results in the name of being a "fan". Just because these 3 play or coach for the Commanders does not automatically make them good players or coaches. It is perfectly acceptable for a good fan to express doubt or point out data from previous stops. This is why I stated that you want to be "loyal" to the coaches. In doing so, you refuse to view other evidence as legitimate as it is disloyal in your opinion.

 

[duke1861]

"we appear to be painting the picture of Turner being a constant victim his entire NFL coaching career."

Turn off the soap operas.

But that is what is happening. Not one person has stated that Turner is responsible for anything that has happened in his 3 stops. The excuses continue to pile up. I find that odd. Am I incorrect?

 

[deanpet21]

It is not Rivera's fault that Fitz got hurt. I said that the strategy was flawed and I was right. Bringing in an older QB and having no real back up QB is on Rivera. Older QBs are more injury prone, I am sure you can agree with that.

I believe 99% of our disagreements occur due to the viewing of the entire picture of a player/coach. I look at past performance as an indicator of future results. In the case of Wentz, Rivera, and Turner, all 3 have poor statistical results in their previous stops and even here in WSH. If you want to ignore those facts and statistics, then it is difficult to have any type of fruitful discussion.

Simply saying "let's have hope" and "stay positive" doesn't erase the historical issues of those 3...in this case, Turner. It is irresponsible to ignore what occurred in Minnesota and CAR. Same with Wentz. In your case, you continue to purposely ignore and cover up the firings, trades, and poor results in the name of being a "fan". Just because these 3 play or coach for the Commanders does not automatically make them good players or coaches. It is perfectly acceptable for a good fan to express doubt or point out data from previous stops. This is why I stated that you want to be "loyal" to the coaches. In doing so, you refuse to view other evidence as legitimate as it is disloyal in your opinion.

He got a Veteran QB who can win in this league and he thought he had a top 10 defense going into 2021. Should of translated into wins but it did not. Fitz got hurt and the defense underperformed with injuries. I can see what he was doing goin into 2021. Allen did the same thing when he got Alex Smith. A vet QB who could win with a strong defense. It didnt work out for various reasons.

I refuse to evaluate Turner on Qb's who are not in this league anymore or shouldn't be in the NFL. You cant look at past performance b/c you hare not comparing apples to apples. Way too many variables to consider. Wentz is a huge wildcard but if he does well we got a star if he fails we move on. This is a very important year for him. Just like Hurts.

 

[skinsdad62]

as far as i am concerned he got every bit of production out of falco that you could . that has to mean something

 

[deanpet21]

as far as i am concerned he got every bit of production out of falco that you could . that has to mean something

Exactly! He did take a no name QB and gave us some buzz. TH is not a starting NFL QB. Give Turner a real QB and lets see how he does.

 

[skinsdad62]

Commanders 'stuck in limbo' in PFF's power rankings ahead of training camp

Where does PFF rank Washington ahead of training camp?

commanderswire.usatoday.com

means nothing

 

[skinsdad62]

4 Commanders players primed to have career seasons in 2022

The Commanders' roster is stacked with talent at almost every position. Here are four players who are prime to have career seasons in 2022.

riggosrag.com

you know people keep telling me sweat (and young ) are do some kind of huge payday yet neither has a double digit sack season or a sack season approaching elite yet payne is right there with the best at HIS position by the numbers

sweat and young ran their collective mouths last TC about setting sack records and they were an embarrassment as far as production with a tendency for hero ball

payne curl and holcomb are key resigning's next year , then sweat , then young . it can be done

 

[skinsdad62]

Too early for this but if true , wow

 

[Rowdy]

It is not Rivera's fault that Fitz got hurt. I said that the strategy was flawed and I was right. Bringing in an older QB and having no real back up QB is on Rivera. Older QBs are more injury prone, I am sure you can agree with that.

I believe 99% of our disagreements occur due to the viewing of the entire picture of a player/coach. I look at past performance as an indicator of future results. In the case of Wentz, Rivera, and Turner, all 3 have poor statistical results in their previous stops and even here in WSH. If you want to ignore those facts and statistics, then it is difficult to have any type of fruitful discussion.

Simply saying "let's have hope" and "stay positive" doesn't erase the historical issues of those 3...in this case, Turner. It is irresponsible to ignore what occurred in Minnesota and CAR. Same with Wentz. In your case, you continue to purposely ignore and cover up the firings, trades, and poor results in the name of being a "fan". Just because these 3 play or coach for the Commanders does not automatically make them good players or coaches. It is perfectly acceptable for a good fan to express doubt or point out data from previous stops. This is why I stated that you want to be "loyal" to the coaches. In doing so, you refuse to view other evidence as legitimate as it is disloyal in your opinion.

Umm, that is exactly what TH is, a true back up instead he wound up being the starter which he isn’t cut out to be