POLL: Last throw by Kap to Crabtree

[MHSL82]

Well, it's the coaching staff that is making the team a run-first operation. It's the strong supporting cast that allows us to run the ball effectively. If we called more pass plays, Kap would have better numbers. When we have asked him to come through throwing the ball, by and large he has done so.

I agree. I hate when people use total yards in a game against a quarterback when the YPA is respectable. People did this against Smith, too. If Smith passed more he'd have more yards. Yes, it would be a lower YPA because defenses wouldn't be defending the run as much (but they might anyway because the throws were short?), but he would have more yards. People didn't care to say that. People would say, "look at the total yards!" People pay attention to yards even when YPA is a better indication.

Smith's YPA was high due to his completion percentage, getting yards on short throws add up compared to missed deeper attempts. I get that, but he was doing for the most part what was asked of him and it worked for the most part. Kaepernick is able to bridge the gap of "for the most part" to a better level if he learns to read defenses better. Kaepernick too was doing what was asked of him for the most part and more will be asked this next year.

 

[yossarian]

Maybe us 49er fans are just a little too hard on our quarterbacks. We've had Y.A Tittle, John Brodie, Joe Montana and Steve Young. Maybe we're just a little spoiled because those four are some of the best, Brodie was very underrated. If that's the tradition, then when we get a good qb, we're pissed because he's not a great qb. I think Kaepernick is being properly challenged to do his reads more, that's fine, that doesn't mean he's not a good qb now, it just means he can be better.

 

[-AC-]

Maybe us 49er fans are just a little too hard on our quarterbacks. We've had Y.A Tittle, John Brodie, Joe Montana and Steve Young. Maybe we're just a little spoiled because those four are some of the best, Brodie was very underrated. If that's the tradition, then when we get a good qb, we're pissed because he's not a great qb. I think Kaepernick is being properly challenged to do his reads more, that's fine, that doesn't mean he's not a good qb now, it just means he can be better.

Even Young had constant criticism until he won a title in 94'...

 

[yossarian]

Even Young had constant criticism until he won a title in 94'...

I remember that well, I also remember Montana was criticized whenever he lost a playoff game, like to the Giants, or the Redskins (although the PI call on Ronnie Lott was BS), etc.

 

[Louie26]

Maybe us 49er fans are just a little too hard on our quarterbacks. We've had Y.A Tittle, John Brodie, Joe Montana and Steve Young. Maybe we're just a little spoiled because those four are some of the best, Brodie was very underrated. If that's the tradition, then when we get a good qb, we're pissed because he's not a great qb. I think Kaepernick is being properly challenged to do his reads more, that's fine, that doesn't mean he's not a good qb now, it just means he can be better.

 

[rjshull]

No, we've gone from "who had a better playoff game against the Seahawks" to...well, that's still where I am. I have no idea where you are. Apparently you now want to consider Kap's three games against Manning's one. Please try to pay closer attention to the actual discussion.

It's interesting to hear that Manning struggled due to Seattle's tenacious D, though. I was under the impression that Kap was playing that same D. In the noisiest stadium in the league. But Manning sure did throw for a respectable amount of yards in moving up and down the field futilely in the second half. And passing yards really are the only important statistic when considering a QB's play. Heck, all those passing yards almost undid the harm Manning did with that atrocious pick-six in the first half.

And you're right, Kap did almost go 0-3. He almost went 2-1, too. Is there something less than "0"? If so, Manning deserves it for his super bowl performance. I'd imagine he agrees.

Your the one trying to say that Kap had a better game becasue he has the ability to run when Peyton has the ability to pick a Defense apart with his arm. When you take Kaps legs away from him he becomes bottom of the pack QB, he cannot win us a SB with his arm.

And can you argue with me that the SB was the best you ahve seen from the Seattle D? At least, from my point of view they had there best game of the year at the exact right time.

And no I am now trying to compare 3 games to 1, my point was that it would take 2 games from Kap to equal 1 game from Manning, in regards to passing, considering passing the ball is the single most important thing that a QB needs to do.

 

[rjshull]

Romo, Stafford, Cutler, and Flacco are better QBs than Kaepernick? Period, end of story? Not sure I can agree with that. Kap has his flaws, to be sure, but he's also been dynamic at times in the playoffs, which is more than any of those guys other than Flacco can say. He probably has the best supporting cast, but you want it both ways. You talk about his coaching staff and strong supporting cast like they're benefits, then knock him for his overall numbers. Well, it's the coaching staff that is making the team a run-first operation. It's the strong supporting cast that allows us to run the ball effectively. If we called more pass plays, Kap would have better numbers. When we have asked him to come through throwing the ball, by and large he has done so.

Oh, and as far as your numbers, the Niners were tied with KC as the best team in the league for INTs thrown this past year. No idea where your 10th is coming from. For that matter, we were 23rd in TDs. Where are you getting your numbers? The TD differential was 21 vs. 23. That's negligible. The INT numbers were identical. It's not like he suffered a huge regression. He was slightly worse as he was asked to do more. Again, that's pretty common.

Yes, I think the listed QB's are better than Kap.

And no, if Kap had the ability to play like a QB and not a RB then the Coaches would be calling more passing plays. If we had Manning do you think we would still be a running team?

And I am not sure where I got the INT numbers from, I looked at them again and you are correct. I had to have looked at the wrong column.

 

[rjshull]

Oh, and as far as your numbers, the Niners were tied with KC as the best team in the league for INTs thrown this past year. No idea where your 10th is coming from. For that matter, we were 23rd in TDs. Where are you getting your numbers? The TD differential was 21 vs. 23. That's negligible. The INT numbers were identical. It's not like he suffered a huge regression. He was slightly worse as he was asked to do more. Again, that's pretty common.

And right there is my point. Do you think Alex Smith is worth $18-$20MM? I sure as hell do not. So how the hell is Kap worth that kind of money. I feel that everyone is so glad to be rid of Smith that we want to overcompensate Kap. Hell I would not be surprised in the least if Gabbert came in and looked good in our system as we do not ask our QB to do anything, we rely on the D and running game. The second we give $20MM to Kap is the second that we have to start to dismantle the part of the team that got us here in the first place. It is not like Kap is Manning or Rodgers and he never will be. If some other team wants to give Kap $20MM then good for them, give me an OK QB and we will be in the same spot we were last year.

 

[-AC-]

Yes, I think the listed QB's are better than Kap.

And no, if Kap had the ability to play like a QB and not a RB then the Coaches would be calling more passing plays. If we had Manning do you think we would still be a running team?

And I am not sure where I got the INT numbers from, I looked at them again and you are correct. I had to have looked at the wrong column.

They had Andrew Luck in college, (by far the best QB in all of college football during that period) and the Roman/Harbaugh offense was still a smash mouth run first team...

 

[MHSL82]

And right there is my point. Do you think Alex Smith is worth $18-$20MM? I sure as hell do not. So how the hell is Kap worth that kind of money. I feel that everyone is so glad to be rid of Smith that we want to overcompensate Kap. Hell I would not be surprised in the least if Gabbert came in and looked good in our system as we do not ask our QB to do anything, we rely on the D and running game. The second we give $20MM to Kap is the second that we have to start to dismantle the part of the team that got us here in the first place. It is not like Kap is Manning or Rodgers and he never will be. If some other team wants to give Kap $20MM then good for them, give me an OK QB and we will be in the same spot we were last year.

Eli Manning (2 SBs), Rivers, Wilson, and a few others are up for new contracts who might make more than 18. So locking Kaepernick up for that might be a 10-15 ranked contract in a few years. There is no middle tier pay - it is rookie pay or 18+. Andy Dalton is looking for that price. Bradford will if he has a good season. What are we going to do? Everyone is waiting for someone else to set a floor below 18.

 

[darken65]

Came home to find out Kap just signed a 6 year deal. No word on the amount just yet.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Your the one trying to say that Kap had a better game becasue he has the ability to run when Peyton has the ability to pick a Defense apart with his arm. When you take Kaps legs away from him he becomes bottom of the pack QB, he cannot win us a SB with his arm.

And can you argue with me that the SB was the best you ahve seen from the Seattle D? At least, from my point of view they had there best game of the year at the exact right time.

And no I am now trying to compare 3 games to 1, my point was that it would take 2 games from Kap to equal 1 game from Manning, in regards to passing, considering passing the ball is the single most important thing that a QB needs to do.

The single most important thing that a QB needs to do is score points. Moving the ball helps with that. Passing the ball is the most efficient way to do it. But it doesn't really matter if we look at points or yards. Kaepernick outstripped Manning in both areas against the Hawks.

I'm saying Kaepernick had the better game because Kaepernick clearly had the better game. In any given single playoff game, I couldn't care less how my QB scores points or moves the offense, so long as he does. If we ran the read option all game and he never threw a pass, but we won the game, that's absolutely fine by me. Kaepernick made some terrible mistakes in the game, particularly with his three turnovers. He also made some very good plays. Manning basically only made mistakes, and he made them early to put his team at a disadvantage they could not overcome. The handful of good plays he made came far too late to make any difference.

Let's look at how Manning's drives went in the first half: 1) Ball was snapped early for a safety; largely on the center, but Peyton Manning calls the plays and is ultimately responsible for those sorts of errors. 2) Three-and-out; pass for three yards on third and five. 3) Three-and-INT; on third and 7, Manning threw an INT in Denver territory. 4) Following an arduous but decent drive to the Seattle 44, Manning threw a pick-six. At that point, Denver was trailing 22-0. The next drive ended with an incomplete pass on fourth and two from the Seattle 19. Halftime, no recovery. In that half, Manning had three completions (out of 24 attempts) that went for more than 10 yards, and none that went for over 19. He was absolutely atrocious, and his two INTs were a big part of why his team was trailing by 22 at the half.

I'm not saying Kaepernick is the better QB. Far from it. But there is absolutely no disputing that he played better against Seattle in the playoffs than Manning did.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

And right there is my point. Do you think Alex Smith is worth $18-$20MM? I sure as hell do not. So how the hell is Kap worth that kind of money. I feel that everyone is so glad to be rid of Smith that we want to overcompensate Kap. Hell I would not be surprised in the least if Gabbert came in and looked good in our system as we do not ask our QB to do anything, we rely on the D and running game. The second we give $20MM to Kap is the second that we have to start to dismantle the part of the team that got us here in the first place. It is not like Kap is Manning or Rodgers and he never will be. If some other team wants to give Kap $20MM then good for them, give me an OK QB and we will be in the same spot we were last year.

Kaepernick is better than Smith right now. If he gets no better for the rest of his career, he is a better QB than Smith. Our defense in the 2011 playoffs was markedly stronger than it was in 2012 or 2013. Smith could not put the Saints away in the divisional round in 2011, and couldn't move the ball against a mediocre Giants' D in the championship game. That's not to knock Smith, per se, he's just limited as a QB in ways that Kaepernick is not. Smith would not have come away from GB with a win this past year, IMO. He would not have come away with a win in Atlanta in 2012. He certainly wouldn't have bounced back after the defensive collapse in the first half of the super bowl.

I agree, paying Kap the amount of money he got is, to some extent, a kick in the crotch. We're going to have to disrupt the roster, and Kap may not be worth it. But he very well may be worth it. He is already far more of a passer than Vick ever was, and he runs much smarter than RGIII. He's had no injury scares. He can hone his passing craft. If he doesn't, we're in trouble. But I see no reason to expect a guy like Kap will not continue to work to improve.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

They had Andrew Luck in college, (by far the best QB in all of college football during that period) and the Roman/Harbaugh offense was still a smash mouth run first team...

Yep. It wouldn't matter who we had at QB; we still wouldn't go out and throw the ball 60% of the time.

 

[yossarian]

I agree, paying Kap the amount of money he got is, to some extent, a kick in the crotch. We're going to have to disrupt the roster, and Kap may not be worth it. But he very well may be worth it. He is already far more of a passer than Vick ever was, and he runs much smarter than RGIII. He's had no injury scares. He can hone his passing craft. If he doesn't, we're in trouble. But I see no reason to expect a guy like Kap will not continue to work to improve.

Yeah, but his low signing bonus will maybe allow the team to sign more contracts.

 

[MHSL82]

Kaepernick is better than Smith right now. If he gets no better for the rest of his career, he is a better QB than Smith. Our defense in the 2011 playoffs was markedly stronger than it was in 2012 or 2013. Smith could not put the Saints away in the divisional round in 2011, and couldn't move the ball against a mediocre Giants' D in the championship game. That's not to knock Smith, per se, he's just limited as a QB in ways that Kaepernick is not. Smith would not have come away from GB with a win this past year, IMO. He would not have come away with a win in Atlanta in 2012. He certainly wouldn't have bounced back after the defensive collapse in the first half of the super bowl.

I agree, paying Kap the amount of money he got is, to some extent, a kick in the crotch. We're going to have to disrupt the roster, and Kap may not be worth it. But he very well may be worth it. He is already far more of a passer than Vick ever was, and he runs much smarter than RGIII. He's had no injury scares. He can hone his passing craft. If he doesn't, we're in trouble. But I see no reason to expect a guy like Kap will not continue to work to improve.

I agree with this post except for the bold. I believe that those games could have resulted in wins with our coaching staff and defense, even with the decline of the defense. I don't think we would come back from being down by that much, we not might not of been down by that much. Not because Smith is better than Smith, but because there would be a different gameplan. Shorter plays, less aggressiveness, maybe we don't start out with three and outs? Maybe the coin toss is deferred (or not deferred) in the Atlanta game (because they think they could stop Alex Smith short) and we instead score instead of three and out?

Maybe we lose by more. The point isn't that we would win with Smith, just that we can't say it would be the same game or different results (or same). We were a good team and Smith was good enough for us to be in it.

This does not say that Smith is better than Kaepernick nor does it say Smith gave us a better or even equal chance. It's just not definitive to be losses, it's just a guess/opinion.

 

[Badger8843]

First of all Kap is getting $18 mil per year and smith wants $15-16 from the chiefs right now and Kap is better then smith. Kap had his top WR out all year and when he came back the offense got going. Smith was never the leader that Kap is already and here is what people seem to forget its Kap 3rd year as starter and he is going to get better. You people amaze me, cutler and romo are getting $18 per and Kap is better then both. It's the QB position in the nfl, it's high dollar, not to mention we play in the toughest division in football. We just can't plug a drop back QB in there against Seattle ask the great Peyton manning about that. But yet Kaps legs almost won the title game in Seattle with a less then a 100% Crabtree now we have boldin, Crabtree and Stevie Johnson. Look out bc our offense is going to explode