Please rank these players . . .

[DorianRo]

Butler is the best player. Just has an attitude problem

 

[Yo Tee]

Dwight Howard sucks at this point. He is no longer the defensive anchor he used to be. That is why he has been available the last 2 off season. He isn't that valuable and every team knows it.

If your pieced together squad is relying on IT and Dwight as its foundational players, you aren't making it out of the first round. Dwight and IT actually fit together pretty poorly too. IT thrived in Boston because their bigs could all shoot and those driving lanes were wide open at all times.

Didn't say Howard would be my second signing, but I could sign guys like him or Bellineli or Deandre Jordan or James Harden or Rudy Gobert for defensive purposes.

 

[tlance]

Didn't say Howard would be my second signing, but I could sign guys like him or Bellineli or Deandre Jordan or James Harden or Rudy Gobert for defensive purposes.

Dude. You don't get it though.

Those players you listed aren't just readily available. The good ones anyway. Howard is about the upper limit for the caliber of rim protector you could expect to get in free agency. You would most likely get somebody like Nerlens Noel or Javale McGee. Guys like Gobert and Jordan are under contract and will be highly coveted when they are next available.

Also, this is like the 3rd time you said you would pick up Harden "for defensive purposes". First off, he is a super max player under contract for like 6 years. Second, he is an awful defender. IT and Harden together might be the worst defensive backcourt in NBA history. Seriously.

 

[trojanfan12]

James Harden or Rudy Gobert for defensive purposes.

 

[Yo Tee]

Dude. You don't get it though.

Those players you listed aren't just readily available. The good ones anyway. Howard is about the upper limit for the caliber of rim protector you could expect to get in free agency. You would most likely get somebody like Nerlens Noel or Javale McGee. Guys like Gobert and Jordan are under contract and will be highly coveted when they are next available.

Also, this is like the 3rd time you said you would pick up Harden "for defensive purposes". First off, he is a super max player under contract for like 6 years. Second, he is an awful defender. IT and Harden together might be the worst defensive backcourt in NBA history. Seriously.

Dude, you don't get it though.

I'd rather have Isaiah Thomas over any of those other three. This was a hypothetical because Thomas is under contract for another year. Butler still has another year. George has another year. So, you're going too real world on this. Have fun with it.

 

[tlance]

Dude, you don't get it though.

I'd rather have Isaiah Thomas over any of those other three. This was a hypothetical because Thomas is under contract for another year. Butler still has another year. George has another year. So, you're going too real world on this. Have fun with it.

No. I get what you are saying. You don't know what you are talking about though.

 

[Yo Tee]

No. I get what you are saying. You don't know what you are talking about though.

Well just because you don't agree with my thinking, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. It's my opinion and respect it just like I've respected yours. You're taking this topic too seriously.

 

[tlance]

Well just because you don't agree with my thinking, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. It's my opinion and respect it just like I've respected yours. You're taking this topic too seriously.

You are calling Harden a good defensive player.

Nothing else I need to say.

 

[Gman]

I've already voiced my disagreement with you, @Terry Rode ... so I'm not going to just pile on.

But I will offer this new angle:

In today's NBA... team defense and defensive versatility is more valuable than individual defensive excellence.

Therefore, it's better to have 1.) 2 pretty good defenders than 2.) one bad defender and one great defender.

Furthermore, IT isn't just a bad defender... he is a team defense wrecking target because of his size limitation.

These are the big reasons I disagree with your take.

 

[Yo Tee]

You are calling Harden a good defensive player.

Nothing else I need to say.

I've never said he's a good defender. I've said that STATISTICALLY Harden and Butler are even on the defensive side of the ball and Harden is a better offensive player than Butler. I've also said that he doesn't have the fundamentals on defense that Butler does. If you're going to recall things I've said, best to recall EVERYTHING that I've said and not just what works for your argument. You disagree with my choice, that's fine, but don't ever say that I'm wrong or I don't know what I'm talking about just because you disagree with me. It's disrespectful and I'm sure you wouldn't want to be told that either.

 

[trojanfan12]

I've never said he's a good defender. I've said that STATISTICALLY Harden and Butler are even on the defensive side of the ball and Harden is a better offensive player than Butler.

Here's the problem though. You are using the fact that they are "statistically even" as your basis to choose Harden over Butler. The problem with using statistics is, as the old saying goes..."there are lies, damned lies and statistics."

It's like if you take 2 NFL defensive backs...1 known to be a lockdown defender and the other being an average defensive back. Statistically speaking, interceptions, tackles, broken up passes, etc. they are probably going to be close to even because opponents aren't going to be throwing in the direction of the lockdown guy nearly as much as the average guy. So, because he has far more opportunities, the average guy will look about the same statistically as the lockdown guy.

Look at the games, how often did you see guys directly challenging Butler vs. directly challenging Harden? How often did you see Harden defending against the opponents best player and how often did you see Butler defending the opponents best player?

 

[Yo Tee]

I've already voiced my disagreement with you, @Terry Rode ... so I'm not going to just pile on.

But I will offer this new angle:

In today's NBA... team defense and defensive versatility is more valuable than individual defensive excellence.

Therefore, it's better to have 1.) 2 pretty good defenders than 2.) one bad defender and one great defender.

Furthermore, IT isn't just a bad defender... he is a team defense wrecking target because of his size limitation.

These are the big reasons I disagree with your take.

I agree that defensive versatility is valuable, but I would also argue that if you don't have a decent shooter, which Thomas is the best on this list, it doesn't really matter how good your defense is if your offense sucks. Golden State doesn't have a great defender, they have a combination of a few very good defenders and great shooters. Where one person is lacking, I can get another to fill in that weakness. Thomas isn't good defensively so I'll bring in a guy like Howard or Gobert or Jordan or Whiteside to fill up that lack of defensive abilities.

 

[Yo Tee]

Here's the problem though. You are using the fact that they are "statistically even" as your basis to choose Harden over Butler. The problem with using statistics is, as the old saying goes..."there are lies, damned lies and statistics."

It's like if you take 2 NFL defensive backs...1 known to be a lockdown defender and the other being an average defensive back. Statistically speaking, interceptions, tackles, broken up passes, etc. they are probably going to be close to even because opponents aren't going to be throwing in the direction of the lockdown guy nearly as much as the average guy. So, because he has far more opportunities, the average guy will look about the same statistically as the lockdown guy.

Look at the games, how often did you see guys directly challenging Butler vs. directly challenging Harden? How often did you see Harden defending against the opponents best player and how often did you see Butler defending the opponents best player?

I'm not using statistically even defensive stats to choose Harden over Butler. I'm using that AND the fact the James Harden is a better offensive player than Jimmy Butler. Butler stands out in defensive basics and fundamentals. Harden stands out offensively. If I get the same defensive stats and BETTER offensive production, why wouldn't I choose Harden over Butler. Where Harden lacks defensively, I'll bring in one of the other 4 or 5 guys I've mentioned earlier. Gobert, Whiteside, Howard, Jordan.

 

[tlance]

I'm not using statistically even defensive stats to choose Harden over Butler. I'm using that AND the fact the James Harden is a better offensive player than Jimmy Butler. Butler stands out in defensive basics and fundamentals. Harden stands out offensively. If I get the same defensive stats and BETTER offensive production, why wouldn't I choose Harden over Butler. Where Harden lacks defensively, I'll bring in one of the other 4 or 5 guys I've mentioned earlier. Gobert, Whiteside, Howard, Jordan.

But that isn't what you are saying. You literally just said in your post that Harden and Butler are even defensively. They are not even close.

I do agree Harden is the better overall player because he is one of the very best offensive players in the league. But, their defense is not comparable. One is a very good defender and one is lousy. One routinely forces elite offensive players into difficult contested shots. The other often stands flat footed and watches his opponent drive past as he tries for a lazy reach around steal.

Don't take the word of literally everyone here though. Google James Harden defense and let me know what you find.

 

[tlance]

I'm not using statistically even defensive stats to choose Harden over Butler. I'm using that AND the fact the James Harden is a better offensive player than Jimmy Butler. Butler stands out in defensive basics and fundamentals. Harden stands out offensively. If I get the same defensive stats and BETTER offensive production, why wouldn't I choose Harden over Butler. Where Harden lacks defensively, I'll bring in one of the other 4 or 5 guys I've mentioned earlier. Gobert, Whiteside, Howard, Jordan.

You are looking at the wrong stats. Blocks and steals are extremely misleading and can be taken out of context. Most stops come when the opponent misses a shot. The best defenders force their opponent into difficult contested shots. The bad ones, like Harden, frequently allow easy rhythm jumpers and drives to the rim. Their opponents shoot much higher percentages.

Jimmy Butler was 3rd among all shooting guard in defensive real plus-minus at +1.80. James Harden was 64th of 94 with -1.57

Their defense is not comparable.

 

[RobToxin]

yah...

according to Kyrie dinosaurs never existed, and aliens live among us like men in black....

 

[tlance]

I agree that defensive versatility is valuable, but I would also argue that if you don't have a decent shooter, which Thomas is the best on this list, it doesn't really matter how good your defense is if your offense sucks. Golden State doesn't have a great defender, they have a combination of a few very good defenders and great shooters. Where one person is lacking, I can get another to fill in that weakness. Thomas isn't good defensively so I'll bring in a guy like Howard or Gobert or Jordan or Whiteside to fill up that lack of defensive abilities.

Golden State doesn't have a great defender? You sure about that?

Draymond Green won DPOY his year and was runner up the last 2?

 

[Yo Tee]

You are looking at the wrong stats. Blocks and steals are extremely misleading and can be taken out of context. Most stops come when the opponent misses a shot. The best defenders force their opponent into difficult contested shots. The bad ones, like Harden, frequently allow easy rhythm jumpers and drives to the rim. Their opponents shoot much higher percentages.

Jimmy Butler was 3rd among all shooting guard in defensive real plus-minus at +1.80. James Harden was 64th of 94 with -1.57

Their defense is not comparable.

James Harden was. You're right. But you're cherry picking stats again, Butler first, Harden second among shooting guards last year in total RPM. Once again, statistically, they put up the same numbers per game. Not sure how many times I gotta say it.

And while we're looking at RPM, look at the centers. Rudy Gobert 1st in the league in DRPM and DeAndre Jordan 5th in total RPM among all centers. You harp on my choice of James Harden but don't look at the fact that I've said 5 other names aside from James Harden. It's as if you wanted to argue about something.

When you look at George's Defensive RPM, he's outside the top 40. When it comes to defensive RPM, Gobert, Jordan and Whiteside are all ahead of Butler. I named those three as well as potential options for defense. Isaiah Thomas was 6th in the league in Offensive RPM while Harden was 4th. So I'll take my chances with a great shooter like Isaiah Thomas and try and get others with better defensive capabilities than Butler and George.

 

[tlance]

James Harden was. You're right. But you're cherry picking stats again, Butler first, Harden second among shooting guards last year in total RPM. Once again, statistically, they put up the same numbers per game. Not sure how many times I gotta say it.

And while we're looking at RPM, look at the centers. Rudy Gobert 1st in the league in DRPM and DeAndre Jordan 5th in total RPM among all centers. You harp on my choice of James Harden but don't look at the fact that I've said 5 other names aside from James Harden. It's as if you wanted to argue about something.

When you look at George's Defensive RPM, he's outside the top 40. When it comes to defensive RPM, Gobert, Jordan and Whiteside are all ahead of Butler. I named those three as well as potential options for defense. Isaiah Thomas was 6th in the league in Offensive RPM while Harden was 4th. So I'll take my chances with a great shooter like Isaiah Thomas and try and get others with better defensive capabilities than Butler and George.

No. I don't need stats to know Harden and IT are terrible defensively. It is really easy to see watching games.

You have made a mockery of yourself on this thread and you don't even know it. I am done with this conversation though. Good luck.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm not using statistically even defensive stats to choose Harden over Butler. I'm using that AND the fact the James Harden is a better offensive player than Jimmy Butler. Butler stands out in defensive basics and fundamentals.

To get to who is the better player, you need both. The offensive gap between Harden and Butler is not nearly as big as the defensive gap between them.