Game Thread: Pittsburgh Penguins(1) vs. New York Rangers(2) | Round 2

[pixburgher66]

@Buccigross: Source: "lots of dissension in the locker room during the playoffs towards him (Bylsma). Arguing, etc. 99.98% he's gone"

I dunno...I still tend to think that the locker room is okay. As outsiders we obviously have to rely on these "sources" and intuition, but I really don't think there's disdain there. Although I must say, if I were on the team and had to listen to the likes of Brooks Orpik (please be gone) and Rob Scuderi (PLEASE SOMEHOW be gone) rip me up (indirectly) in the media, I'd be peeved.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I dunno...I still tend to think that the locker room is okay. As outsiders we obviously have to rely on these "sources" and intuition, but I really don't think there's disdain there. Although I must say, if I were on the team and had to listen to the likes of Brooks Orpik (please be gone) and Rob Scuderi (PLEASE SOMEHOW be gone) rip me up (indirectly) in the media, I'd be peeved.

It's hard for me to believe that there is that much disdain for the coach, I wonder if some of it is fabricated - it's time for him to be canned but not because of the complete dislike that the players have for him

 

[pixburgher66]

I'll make some prediction type things, although I'm keeping it rather vague:

1) Bylsma and staff are gone
2) Shero stays (although the argument can be made about the make up of this team, the talent is still there and being underutilized)
3) One of the following guys are traded: Neal, Letang, MAF, Malkin* (*very unlikely, no way there's a return good enough)
4) Scuderi is bought out

I don't think all those things happen, but the team will look substantially different next year. Heck, they don't even need to trade for it to look different. Let's take a gander at who they have and don't have signed:
Signed
G-MAF, Zatkoff
D-Martin, Letang, Scuderi, Maatta, Bortuzzo
F-Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, Bennett, Adams
Unsigned
G-Vokoun (not returning)
D-Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Despres*
F-Jokinen, Stempniak, Sutter*, Goc, Glass, Megna*, Pyatt, Kobasew, Vitale, Conner, Zolnierczyk, Gibbons
Just about $16M in space, btw. With about a million holes. I'm assuming that the D gets an overhaul by simply letting some of the youth step in. That forward group? Oi vey. I'd probably sign Jokinen (may be super pricey), Sutter (RFA), Goc, Megna, and Gibbons. But that group alone is probably around $12M, leaving $4M to sign at least 3 more guys to get to 13F and 7D? Of course if they buy out Scuds that opens up money, although I don't think he can be amnesty bought out. Gosh that was a bad move.

 

[pixburgher66]

It's hard for me to believe that there is that much disdain for the coach, I wonder if some of it is fabricated - it's time for him to be canned but not because of the complete dislike that the players have for him

The dude was selected as the guy most players would want to play for. Heck, he's known as being a player friendly guy. There are many valid reasons for him to go, but I don't think disdain or dissension was part of it. Of course they may have gotten fed up with being told the same crap over and over and getting nowhere.

 

[pixburgher66]

"Penguins ownership will consider a sweeping overhaul that could include terminating general manager Ray Shero"

That's from Rossi, who although a dunce, does have a good handle on the pulse of the organization.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'll make some prediction type things, although I'm keeping it rather vague:

1) Bylsma and staff are gone
2) Shero stays (although the argument can be made about the make up of this team, the talent is still there and being underutilized)
3) One of the following guys are traded: Neal, Letang, MAF, Malkin* (*very unlikely, no way there's a return good enough)
4) Scuderi is bought out

I don't think all those things happen, but the team will look substantially different next year. Heck, they don't even need to trade for it to look different. Let's take a gander at who they have and don't have signed:
Signed
G-MAF, Zatkoff
D-Martin, Letang, Scuderi, Maatta, Bortuzzo
F-Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, Bennett, Adams
Unsigned
G-Vokoun (not returning)
D-Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Despres*
F-Jokinen, Stempniak, Sutter*, Goc, Glass, Megna*, Pyatt, Kobasew, Vitale, Conner, Zolnierczyk, Gibbons
Just about $16M in space, btw. With about a million holes. I'm assuming that the D gets an overhaul by simply letting some of the youth step in. That forward group? Oi vey. I'd probably sign Jokinen (may be super pricey), Sutter (RFA), Goc, Megna, and Gibbons. But that group alone is probably around $12M, leaving $4M to sign at least 3 more guys to get to 13F and 7D? Of course if they buy out Scuds that opens up money, although I don't think he can be amnesty bought out. Gosh that was a bad move.

I think 1 and 3 happens - they fire the coach and the staff and somebody gets traded - I think they should move Letang and try and get Jordan Staal back - Carolina needs help on defense and I think the Penguins miss Jordan Staal, even though Brandon Sutter's done an admirable job

I think they should look into moving James Neal as well for more depth throughout the lineup - I'd re-sign Jussi, Brandon Sutter, Joe Vitale and Brian Gibbons - that would give you at least 10 forwards(including the 6 already signed, not counting James Neal)

They need to just let all the dead weight go, in all honesty - and even if they can't amnesty Rob Scuderi, they can still buy him out the traditional way, although that would really suck when you already need the space to re-sign guys

Trade Letang for Jordan Staal and have a defense of Paul Martin, Olli Maatta, Simon Despres, one of the other young guys in the minors that should be ready, Robert Bortuzzo and maybe re-sign Matt Niskanen or look for someone else

Tons of questions for the Penguins, this is why I don't think Ray Shero gets canned right now, too many questions and it would be a mess for the new GM

 

[dare2be]

It's a new day. Is he fired yet?

 

[Johnnydollaz89]

I love seeing this!!

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Trotz is the anti Dan. He has a good head for the game and can see what the other team is doing strategy wise. He gets a lot out of his bench, even when his cupboard is bare. Not sure what he'd do if he had Pens firepower, but I imagine it would be good things.

Which is good, because he certainly has no neck for it.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Does anyone think Bylsma may be getting the blame unfairly for some things?

What's to say management and/or ownership aren't sticking their noses in to some of his game day personnel decisions? No offense to the guy, but I could see Lemieux being one of those guys to say that he's not gonna let $7M of defensemen (Scuderi and Orpik) be healthy scratches even when they deserve to be.

 

[dare2be]

It goes well beyond personnel decisions. It's game day strategy, setting up shift matchups, getting on the players for their execution or lack thereof, etc.

 

[Johnnydollaz89]

 

[evolver115]

Does anyone think Bylsma may be getting the blame unfairly for some things?

What's to say management and/or ownership aren't sticking their noses in to some of his game day personnel decisions? No offense to the guy, but I could see Lemieux being one of those guys to say that he's not gonna let $7M of defensemen (Scuderi and Orpik) be healthy scratches even when they deserve to be.

I doubt Lemieux is getting in between Dan and Ray about decisions being made. Since he's been the owner, there has never been anything reported in either the canadian or US press that Lemieux is meddling with team decisions, other than acquiring and trading talent and the draft.

It goes well beyond personnel decisions. It's game day strategy, setting up shift matchups, getting on the players for their execution or lack thereof, etc.

It's also his lack of using his farm system correctly. Simon Despres being exhibit #1 of that horrendous failure.

With guys like Pouliot and Jarry about to make the jump, I really don't want Dan anywhere near either of those assets. Maatta fell into his lap. He did nothing for that kid that is discernible to me.

 

[sbb122]

I'll make some prediction type things, although I'm keeping it rather vague:

1) Bylsma and staff are gone
2) Shero stays (although the argument can be made about the make up of this team, the talent is still there and being underutilized)
3) One of the following guys are traded: Neal, Letang, MAF, Malkin* (*very unlikely, no way there's a return good enough)
4) Scuderi is bought out

I don't think all those things happen, but the team will look substantially different next year. Heck, they don't even need to trade for it to look different. Let's take a gander at who they have and don't have signed:
Signed
G-MAF, Zatkoff
D-Martin, Letang, Scuderi, Maatta, Bortuzzo
F-Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, Bennett, Adams
Unsigned
G-Vokoun (not returning)
D-Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Despres*
F-Jokinen, Stempniak, Sutter*, Goc, Glass, Megna*, Pyatt, Kobasew, Vitale, Conner, Zolnierczyk, Gibbons
Just about $16M in space, btw. With about a million holes. I'm assuming that the D gets an overhaul by simply letting some of the youth step in. That forward group? Oi vey. I'd probably sign Jokinen (may be super pricey), Sutter (RFA), Goc, Megna, and Gibbons. But that group alone is probably around $12M, leaving $4M to sign at least 3 more guys to get to 13F and 7D? Of course if they buy out Scuds that opens up money, although I don't think he can be amnesty bought out. Gosh that was a bad move.

Scuderi can't be bought out. You can only amnesty contracts signed prior to the lockout.

/edit, missed your last sentence

 

[forty_three]

Thanks, Evol!!



Thank you!! As to your last paragraph, you're a former goalie, pretty sure your son plays it as well if I recall correctly? I'm glad you realize how important Hank is to this team and that as good as Talbot may be, he's still just a backup and nowhere near Hank's level!

We live and die with Hank.

Who oh btw, became the first goalie in Nhl history to win 5 straight game 7's

I though you had me on ignore with as much shit as you are talking about me and everyone else on the main board elsewhere?

Thank you for acknowledging I sometimes do know what I am talking about.

@Buccigross: Source: "lots of dissension in the locker room during the playoffs towards him (Bylsma). Arguing, etc. 99.98% he's gone"

Players know when they are being misused. And it's frustrating.

Does anyone think Bylsma may be getting the blame unfairly for some things?

What's to say management and/or ownership aren't sticking their noses in to some of his game day personnel decisions? No offense to the guy, but I could see Lemieux being one of those guys to say that he's not gonna let $7M of defensemen (Scuderi and Orpik) be healthy scratches even when they deserve to be.

This may sound like a slight on Mario, and I hope I can express it properly without making it seem like I am insulting him. But he's never seemed to be the "above and beyond" type. He always had superior skill and relied on it to make fools out of a lot of guys in his day. But I don't get the sense that he is an owner in the "I've always wanted to do this" mold. The previous owner was a crook or a poor businessman or both, and Mario got the team as compensation. I think he's fine where he is and I would seriously doubt he's down in the locker room trying to make adjustments. He is fine sitting in the owners box and making what's owed to him.

Besides, if he *was* down in the locker room giving Danny game plans, chances are the Pens would have looked better. Mario understands the game.

 

[Johnnydollaz89]

I though you had me on ignore with as much shit as you are talking about me and everyone else on the main board elsewhere?

Thank you for acknowledging I sometimes do know what I am talking about.



Players know when they are being misused. And it's frustrating.



This may sound like a slight on Mario, and I hope I can express it properly without making it seem like I am insulting him. But he's never seemed to be the "above and beyond" type. He always had superior skill and relied on it to make fools out of a lot of guys in his day. But I don't get the sense that he is an owner in the "I've always wanted to do this" mold. The previous owner was a crook or a poor businessman or both, and Mario got the team as compensation. I think he's fine where he is and I would seriously doubt he's down in the locker room trying to make adjustments. He is fine sitting in the owners box and making what's owed to him.

Besides, if he *was* down in the locker room giving Danny game plans, chances are the Pens would have looked better. Mario understands the game.

I decided not to. I'm not gonna hold a stupid grudge over a hockey game. I'll be mature about it, if you don't want to accept my apology, it's all good and I understand. I never said ''you don't know what you're talking about'' I know your knowledge of the game from playing it and coaching it. I never questioned it.

Plus, what you said about Cam/Hank, is something i've been preaching to Ranger fans all season long. I agree with it.

 

[evolver115]

This may sound like a slight on Mario, and I hope I can express it properly without making it seem like I am insulting him. But he's never seemed to be the "above and beyond" type. He always had superior skill and relied on it to make fools out of a lot of guys in his day. But I don't get the sense that he is an owner in the "I've always wanted to do this" mold. The previous owner was a crook or a poor businessman or both, and Mario got the team as compensation. I think he's fine where he is and I would seriously doubt he's down in the locker room trying to make adjustments. He is fine sitting in the owners box and making what's owed to him.

Besides, if he *was* down in the locker room giving Danny game plans, chances are the Pens would have looked better. Mario understands the game.

I kind of disagree with Mario not being an 'above and beyond' type. When the team went through their most recent bankruptcy, Lemieux went through federal bankruptcy hearings and battled off an outside plan to move the team to Portland, or some shit like that.

What you want to classify him as is obviously up to the individual, but pretty much everything he said before, during and after he became majority owner of the Penguins franchise led me to believe that he felt a personal responsibility to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh, and that he would do anything in his power to make that a reality.

He could have only concerned himself with recouping the reported $25 million then owed to him, and washed his hands of the situation. But he chose a different path.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

This may sound like a slight on Mario, and I hope I can express it properly without making it seem like I am insulting him. But he's never seemed to be the "above and beyond" type. He always had superior skill and relied on it to make fools out of a lot of guys in his day. But I don't get the sense that he is an owner in the "I've always wanted to do this" mold. The previous owner was a crook or a poor businessman or both, and Mario got the team as compensation. I think he's fine where he is and I would seriously doubt he's down in the locker room trying to make adjustments. He is fine sitting in the owners box and making what's owed to him.

Besides, if he *was* down in the locker room giving Danny game plans, chances are the Pens would have looked better. Mario understands the game.

That's why I wonder if he could be getting in the way sometimes. If he's got it in his head that he knows what's best for the team and makes some bad decisions.

I'm not saying I know that to be the case, just speculating. Sometimes great former players make bad bosses because they think too much about how they used to do it or can't transfer their knowledge from the ice to behind the bench/press box.

 

[forty_three]

I kind of disagree with Mario not being an 'above and beyond' type. When the team went through their most recent bankruptcy, Lemieux went through federal bankruptcy hearings and battled off an outside plan to move the team to Portland, or some shit like that.

What you want to classify him as is obviously up to the individual, but pretty much everything he said before, during and after he became majority owner of the Penguins franchise led me to believe that he felt a personal responsibility to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh, and that he would do anything in his power to make that a reality.

He could have only concerned himself with recouping the reported $25 million then owed to him, and washed his hands of the situation. But he chose a different path.

I'm not happy with the way that came out. I was trying to say that he's not really the "typical" sports owner type. He's not Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban. And honestly, I believe that he could have been just happy as heck to have retired somewhere in Quebec if he never had to take ownership of the Pens. I know that when he is doing something, he is going to put everything he has into it.

But I don't get the sense that he's going to be all Jerry Jones and act like he wants to control every aspect. He sets the direction and then sits in his press box and lets the people he hired do their jobs. I think it's unlikely he's gonna move from that seat and interfere.

I guess because he's played and he's seen that glory first hand. I think some owners never got to experience it so they try to get too close to it.

 

[element1286]

Does anyone think Bylsma may be getting the blame unfairly for some things?

What's to say management and/or ownership aren't sticking their noses in to some of his game day personnel decisions? No offense to the guy, but I could see Lemieux being one of those guys to say that he's not gonna let $7M of defensemen (Scuderi and Orpik) be healthy scratches even when they deserve to be.

Nope, and this isn't a one year wonder. Since the 09' Cup the Pens have only beat Ottawa (twice), the Islanders, and Columbus in a 7 game series. This was probably the worst Pens team of that group too. Dan has flamed out with much better teams in more spectacular fashion.

No way Mario advocates for the scrubs Dan puts out there night after night. I've heard his system is inflexible, there is a position you are in, and a play to be made, you make that play in that position even if it's not there. Young players can't figure this out, they were never taught to play hockey that way. Vets like Scuds and Adams will play that way because they know how to get into the lineup every night, just do what the coach says to do.