Pirates' Starting Rotation

[sychmd]

i vote sanchez and locke,
sanchez is a bit of a gamble, but so much upside,
if he pitches to potential, he surpasses burnett and wandy.
to me that is worth the chance, especially with the last 2 starts.
last night was against a real starting lineup for the O's as well.

locke and mcp seem interchangable, with locke in the recent lead. i like mcp for the long run but seems to get a slow start this year.

kartstens is reliable as the 5th starter of long reliever, we will see how well he gets into shape.

 

[element1286]

I'm thinking you are right about Sanchez making the team, Mags. The only problem I have is that injuries are the best time to have a mid-level prospect come up and show what they have.

I think it is advantageous for a couple of reasons.

1. In this instance guys like Locke and McPherson probably aren't good enough to warrant a guaranteed spot on the team no matter what their performance is. Maybe in years past they would have, but I think this team is past the point where they should be guaranteeing spots to potential mid-level players, or at least they should be.

2. They would, presumably, be up for a defined period of time. And this time would be known to all parties. So neither should be worried about getting crushed the first start because they know they have 4 until the injured player returns, this is a way to relieve the 'pressure' aspect of the development.

3. If a player does well, the organization has increased their overall value a bit. If they player does poorly, the organization has more information as to what the player needs to work on.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'd take McPherson or Locke any day over a scrub like Sanchez.

 

[sychmd]

what is the cost of sanchez?
he has so much more upside than either locke or mcp who are at best a 4 and maybe a 5th starter now and in the future.

also, sanchez is only 30 so would be desirable to others as a trade chip if he harnesses the potential. pitchers will be ahead of hitters in the beginning so if he can catch some momentum out of the box going against another teams 4 or 5, who knows.

 

[calsnowskier]

i vote sanchez and locke,
sanchez is a bit of a gamble, but so much upside,
if he pitches to potential, he surpasses burnett and wandy.
to me that is worth the chance, especially with the last 2 starts.
last night was against a real starting lineup for the O's as well.

locke and mcp seem interchangable, with locke in the recent lead. i like mcp for the long run but seems to get a slow start this year.

kartstens is reliable as the 5th starter of long reliever, we will see how well he gets into shape.

If Durty pitches to potential, he is a CY candidate. His problem is drive and desire. He was a stud for us until he decided he didnt have to work anymore. Apparently, becoming a journeyman has not disproved him of this fact.

 

[magnumo]

And now Jeanmar Gomez pitches well for the second straight outing. I'm sitting on pins and needles, waiting to see who's going to open in the rotation.

 

[thecrow124]

Mags it is kind of annoying to me. We signed Liriano for a buttload of money and dollars to donuts he gets outpitched by Sanchez this season, whom we got on a minor league deal.

 

[magnumo]

Mags it is kind of annoying to me. We signed Liriano for a buttload of money and dollars to donuts he gets outpitched by Sanchez this season, whom we got on a minor league deal.

Hey, crow..... if we wind up with both the good Sanchez and the good Liriano, I'll be happy regardless of which one pitches better.

It remains very possible that Huntington paid too much for Liriano..... but while Liriano is a risk, I'd still rather have him than someone like Lohse for twice the money.

At any rate, I'm just hoping that the apparent starting depth the Pirates have is real rather than illusory.

Perhaps the best possible outcome is for both Sanchez and Gomez to pitch well and open the season in the rotation..... giving Karstens more time to get into pitching shape, and letting the team option both Locke and McPherson to Indy..... where they both pitch well (along with Cole and Irwin)..... and also giving Liriano and Morton time to come back strong.

Hey..... I know everything won't go right, but it seems like the Pirates have a non-zero chance of having excess starting pitching available by mid-season..... guys of high enough quality to provide trade opportunities for some better position players. I may be dreaming..... but what the heck!

 

[sychmd]

mags, i agree with your optimism,
lets be thankful if any of our group amount to a reliable and good 5 man rotation.
if we are blessed to have 6 or 7 reliable starters, then amazing problem to have and we have options from position of strength instead of always scrambling.

 

[element1286]

what is the cost of sanchez?
he has so much more upside than either locke or mcp who are at best a 4 and maybe a 5th starter now and in the future.

also, sanchez is only 30 so would be desirable to others as a trade chip if he harnesses the potential. pitchers will be ahead of hitters in the beginning so if he can catch some momentum out of the box going against another teams 4 or 5, who knows.

He was mediocre in 2011 and horrendous in 2012, I don't see the upside. And his velocity isn't where it was when he was a #3.

I don't see the upside.

 

[thedddd]

I see Sanchez nothing more than bullpen help if he is a starter it is only to keep the spot warm until Liriano comes back or when Cole gets recalled. If the lefties in the bullpen are pitching well I see him going the way of Bedard, released. There is no value in him at all and really not at all warm and fuzzy with him out there every fifth day.

With that I would rather have him than Gomez!

I really wished that Locke or McPherson could have won that spot easily then this discussion would never be happening.

 

[magnumo]

The Indianapolis rotation looks interesting at this point:

- Seems a sure thing that Cole and Irwin will be 2 of the 5.

- When Oliver was cut, Huntington stated that he would open in the Indy rotation.

- If McPherson is optioned to Indy (as is now expected), he almost assuredly will be in the rotation. (Same for Locke).

- Some are speculating that Pirate management still likes Jeanmar Gomez (and Huntington has been quoted to that effect). I recognize that he started out pretty bad, but he has performed well in his last two outings, and it's true that he has been a decent major league 5th starter in the past. Since Gomez is out of options, the Pirates may try to sneak him through waivers..... and if they're successful, he would become a candidate for the Indy rotation.

- Stolmy Pimentel is on the Indianapolis roster, historically a starter, and 2013 is his last option year.

- And we can't forget about Justin Wilson or Kris Johnson.....or even Jameson Taillon, who may be knocking on the Indy door by mid-season.

- Meanwhile, Liriano and Morton may need some rehab starts at Indy before coming off the DL.

Don't know whether I've missed anyone..... but the franchise still has a lot of sorting out to do (still looks like a good kind of problem to have).

 

[Darkstone42]

The Indianapolis rotation looks interesting at this point:

- Seems a sure thing that Cole and Irwin will be 2 of the 5.

- When Oliver was cut, Huntington stated that he would open in the Indy rotation.

- If McPherson is optioned to Indy (as is now expected), he almost assuredly will be in the rotation. (Same for Locke).

- Some are speculating that Pirate management still likes Jeanmar Gomez (and Huntington has been quoted to that effect). I recognize that he started out pretty bad, but he has performed well in his last two outings, and it's true that he has been a decent major league 5th starter in the past. Since Gomez is out of options, the Pirates may try to sneak him through waivers..... and if they're successful, he would become a candidate for the Indy rotation.

- Stolmy Pimentel is on the Indianapolis roster, historically a starter, and 2013 is his last option year.

- And we can't forget about Justin Wilson or Kris Johnson.....or even Jameson Taillon, who may be knocking on the Indy door by mid-season.

- Meanwhile, Liriano and Morton may need some rehab starts at Indy before coming off the DL.

Don't know whether I've missed anyone..... but the franchise still has a lot of sorting out to do (still looks like a good kind of problem to have).

Perhaps Liriano and Morton could do their rehab starts in AA or A+ if the AAA rotation in too full. I'm not sure what the rules are on that, but I just seem to remember some folks doing rehab games in the very low minors.

Even without those two, though, that's a lot of pitchers. I don't think Gomez will clear waivers, because I think there are plenty of teams with inferior pitching depth who might pick him up as an insurance option, but even if he doesn't, we'll likely have at least seven starters in Indy, with the possibility of two or three more, and later Taillon if he pitches well in Altoona. I suspect, however, that Taillon's promotion to AAA may coincide with Cole's promotion to the Majors.

 

[thedddd]

The only others in AAA that I know that started were Mazzaro (I hope he doesn't take starts away from real prospects!), Hollingsworth (is he still around?) and Irwin who should be in the rotation.
I highly doubt Kingham will make the jump to AAA at any point and Alderson might jump up to AAA if they are desperate.

 

[magnumo]

Reply to thecrow124:

I don't think there's any rule about level for rehab starts. Frequently (depending on how long a guy has been out), a starter will begin his rehab in the low minors..... but teams usually like to have them finish rehab in the high minors, against better competition, before starters return to the majors. I believe the rehab time limit for pitchers is 30 days, so a guy has time to make several rehab starts. Your thought about AA instead of AAA might work, though.

Reply to thedddd:

- I think Mazzaro is still in major league camp (although I don't know why)..... but I agree that, when he's cut, he shouldn't take starts away from any of those other pitchers at Indy.

- I'm not familiar with "Hollingsworth." The only guy who comes to mind is Rick VandenHurk and he's gone..... was granted his release so he could sign with a Korean team.

- Yes..... Irwin is a sure thing (as stated in my post #71).

- Agree on Kingham, as well. He won't start at Indy.

- Alderson? He's pitched primarily at Altoona for 3 straight seasons and hasn't distinguished himself. I'm not ready to write him off completely yet (since he's only 24), but I think you're right..... things would need to get pretty desperate for Alderson to see the Indianapolis rotation.

 

[thedddd]

Reply to thecrow124:

I don't think there's any rule about level for rehab starts. Frequently (depending on how long a guy has been out), a starter will begin his rehab in the low minors..... but teams usually like to have them finish rehab in the high minors, against better competition, before starters return to the majors. I believe the rehab time limit for pitchers is 30 days, so a guy has time to make several rehab starts. Your thought about AA instead of AAA might work, though.

Reply to thedddd:

- I think Mazzaro is still in major league camp (although I don't know why)..... but I agree that, when he's cut, he shouldn't take starts away from any of those other pitchers at Indy.

- I'm not familiar with "Hollingsworth." The only guy who comes to mind is Rick VandenHurk and he's gone..... was granted his release so he could sign with a Korean team.

- Yes..... Irwin is a sure thing (as stated in my post #71).

- Agree on Kingham, as well. He won't start at Indy.

- Alderson? He's pitched primarily at Altoona for 3 straight seasons and hasn't distinguished himself. I'm not ready to write him off completely yet (since he's only 24), but I think you're right..... things would need to get pretty desperate for Alderson to see the Indianapolis rotation.

DUH...missed that in the first line!

The only reason I brought up Alderson was the fact that he has been floating around for a while in AA and is starting again. Not that he would start in AAA but the fact that if desperate give him a chance since at one time to see if they have anything.

Hollingsworth was our minor league rule 5 wasn't sure if they kept him or returned him.

Ethan Hollingsworth Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

 

[thecrow124]

DUH...missed that in the first line!

The only reason I brought up Alderson was the fact that he has been floating around for a while in AA and is starting again. Not that he would start in AAA but the fact that if desperate give him a chance since at one time to see if they have anything.

Hollingsworth was our minor league rule 5 wasn't sure if they kept him or returned him.

Ethan Hollingsworth Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

Alderson finished last season in the bullpen if I am not mistaken. At this point I think his prospect career is about over and he can now be called organizational depth and borderline minor league veteran.

 

[magnumo]

Hollingsworth was our minor league rule 5 wasn't sure if they kept him or returned him.

Ethan Hollingsworth Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

OK..... thanks much for that info. I had missed Hollingsworth completely.

From the link you posted, his stats look very unimpressive. Apparently, he has given up over a hit per inning at just about every minor league stop..... in some cases, way over a hit per inning. (I don't know whether hits per inning is the "best" peripheral to look at for a minor league pitcher, but it's one that always catches my eye.) Hollingsworth looks like a non-prospect to me, but perhaps he'll do better away from the PCL. At any rate, it will surprise me greatly if he's considered for a rotation spot..... the competition is just too stiff.

Minor league rosters are not conclusive at this time of year, but according to this one, Hollingsworth is still on the Indianapolis roster:

Indianapolis Indians Team Roster | Indianapolis Indians Roster

 

[thecrow124]

OK..... thanks much for that info. I had missed Hollingsworth completely.

From the link you posted, his stats look very unimpressive. Apparently, he has given up over a hit per inning at just about every minor league stop..... in some cases, way over a hit per inning. (I don't know whether hits per inning is the "best" peripheral to look at for a minor league pitcher, but it's one that always catches my eye.) Hollingsworth looks like a non-prospect to me, but perhaps he'll do better away from the PCL. At any rate, it will surprise me greatly if he's considered for a rotation spot..... the competition is just too stiff.

Minor league rosters are not conclusive at this time of year, but according to this one, Hollingsworth is still on the Indianapolis roster:

Indianapolis Indians Team Roster | Indianapolis Indians Roster

Hollingsworth was taken in the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft. Generally these guys are non-prospects and do not need to be protected with a 25 man roster spot.

 

[magnumo]

Looks like Karstens is hurting again and will NOT be opening the season in the rotation:

Shoulder pain confounds today's scheduled start of Pirates' pitcher Karstens - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

So..... looks like two of Sanchez, Locke, Gomez, and McPherson.

 

[magnumo]

Ooops..... the Pirates' page at MLB.com is saying that Leroux is back in the starting mix (along with Sanchez, Locke, Gomez, and McPherson):

Bucs right-hander Jeff Karstens was scratched from his start against Baltimore on Sunday with shoulder discomfort. | pirates.com: News