Phil Simms on Andrew Luck

[threelittleturds]

Manning breaks it to Simms: 'I don't watch your show'

Peyton goes in on Phil. Haha.

Count me as one of the people who doesn't watch Inside the NFL, that show is complete trash. I grew tired of it back in the late 90s when it turned into, Inside our favorite NFL Teams.

 

[I_am_1z]

Isn't that what a game-manager is, as Ray called him?

Usually you would be right, but with this offense they don't just try to hit quick short passes (as you know). Being a game manager is having a conservative mindset to limit turnovers. Everyone has heard of the saying, establishing the run opens up the playbook, but I've never seen it done to this degree where you can attack downfield and it's not all that risky of a pass.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Usually you would be right, but with this offense they don't just try to hit quick short passes (as you know). Being a game manager is having a conservative mindset to limit turnovers. Everyone has heard of the saying, establishing the run opens up the playbook, but I've never seen it done to this degree where you can attack downfield and it's not all that risky of a pass.

How does David Shaw make Luck play with a conservative mindset? How is that even possible when he's averaging 9.2 YPA? It's not as if Stanford has world class athletes at the skill positions that take it to the house every time.

 

[MW49ers5]

Count me as one of the people who doesn't watch Inside the NFL, that show is complete trash. I grew tired of it back in the late 90s when it turned into, Inside our favorite NFL Teams.

Hahaha...I didn't even know it was still on.

 

[imac_21]

How does David Shaw make Luck play with a conservative mindset? How is that even possible when he's averaging 9.2 YPA? It's not as if Stanford has world class athletes at the skill positions that take it to the house every time.

Clyde, you have been one of the guys talking about QBR being a somewhat effective tool because it credits the WR for YAC rather than QBs. You were also posting the other day that passer rating is an ineffective way to evaluate QBs because it credits the QB for YAC.

Now, I'm not coming down on one side of this or the other, because I've seen very few Stanford games, but how is YPA a definitive indicator of a non-conservative mindset?

Is it impossible to imagine that YAC could be responsible for this? How about the high completion percentage? It's yards per ATTEMPT, so a high completion percentage would inflate the YPA. If you complete 4 of 51 passes for 40 yards with a long of 11, your YPA is the same as someone who completes 1 of 5 passes for 40 yards with an obvious long of 40. They both average 8 YPA, but based on the numbers which offense is likely more conservative? Can you tell that from the YPA?

There have to be stats that can supplement your argument. How does his YPCompletion stack up in the conference? How many passes does he throw that travel more than 10/15/20 yards downfield etc?

Also, I think it's a little misleading to compare how Luck's numbers in the PAC 12 stack up to the SEC. It's different schedules, different competition.

 

[Arete Tzu]

Where is this myth coming from? Who said Luck's a dink and dunk QB?

You are saying he is a game manager, game managers do the safe plays. How many game managers constantly work out side of dink and dunk plays? I really can't think of any. Game managers aren't allowed many opportunities to hurt the team.

Logically shouldn't a QB that efficient, on a quick scoring team with a strong defensively, have less attempts? In games where the defense gives up a lot of points, luck is fully capable of opening it up to either set the pace or keep up. Game managers are good a not losing, Luck is good at helping to win.

and Simms powerful arm stuff is nothing more than making a mountain out of a mole hill. He is nit picking and treating it like it's big.

 

[I_am_1z]

How does David Shaw make Luck play with a conservative mindset? How is that even possible when he's averaging 9.2 YPA? It's not as if Stanford has world class athletes at the skill positions that take it to the house every time.

Mismatches downfield. TEs (Two who are NFL caliber) single covered by corners. Using bunch formations so you can't bump your man at the line of scrimmage. Their running game keeps linebackers/linemen on the field. High completion percentage. The opposing defenses Stanford faces. There are a multitude of factors, including that he's a 1st round talent (A mid 1st rounder in my book).

 

[Hangman]

Andrew Luck throws 50 yd bullet for TD to Doug Baldwin, Stanford vs OSU - YouTube

Look at how little air he puts on the ball for a 50 yard pass. That takes a lot of arm strength to do. Also makes it much harder to pick.

 

[Arete Tzu]

Mismatches downfield. TEs (Two who are NFL caliber) single covered by corners. Using bunch formations so you can't bump your man at the line of scrimmage. Their running game keeps linebackers/linemen on the field. High completion percentage. The opposing defenses Stanford faces. There are a multitude of factors, including that he's a 1st round talent (A mid 1st rounder in my book).

Is creating mismatches automatically conservative or game managing? To me that sounds like good coaching. To me it doesn't make sense to knock Luck for that. VD creates enough mismatches to be double teamed, and he goes beyond typical TE routes. A good QB should take advantage of it.

How does Luck look to you when he is called on to make NFL passes? For people who have mentioned the number of attempts, how does he look under high attempts when they open things up?

 

[clyde_carbon]

Clyde, you have been one of the guys talking about QBR being a somewhat effective tool because it credits the WR for YAC rather than QBs. You were also posting the other day that passer rating is an ineffective way to evaluate QBs because it credits the QB for YAC.

Now, I'm not coming down on one side of this or the other, because I've seen very few Stanford games, but how is YPA a definitive indicator of a non-conservative mindset?

Is it impossible to imagine that YAC could be responsible for this? How about the high completion percentage? It's yards per ATTEMPT, so a high completion percentage would inflate the YPA. If you complete 4 of 51 passes for 40 yards with a long of 11, your YPA is the same as someone who completes 1 of 5 passes for 40 yards with an obvious long of 40. They both average 8 YPA, but based on the numbers which offense is likely more conservative? Can you tell that from the YPA?

There have to be stats that can supplement your argument. How does his YPCompletion stack up in the conference? How many passes does he throw that travel more than 10/15/20 yards downfield etc?

Also, I think it's a little misleading to compare how Luck's numbers in the PAC 12 stack up to the SEC. It's different schedules, different competition.

I have never been a proponent of QBR. In fact, I was the one who brought up YAC when I was criticizing it.

I don't think YPA is a definitive indicator that Luck/Stanford's offense is not conservative, but it's a pretty good indicator, IMO. Especially considering Stanford's skill guys.

I have those numbers if you want, but who do we compare it to? We can't compare it to guys like Landry Jones or Robert Griffin because of their offenses. We can't compare it to Blaine Gautier because of conference. Luck has 50 completions of 15+ yards and 20 completions of 25+ yards. For the sake of the argument let's compare him to Matt Barkley. Same conference, pro style offense. Barkley has 48 15+ completions and 17 25+ completions.

And after a quick scan, Luck is #1 in the PAC12 in 25+ yard completions.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Mismatches downfield. TEs (Two who are NFL caliber) single covered by corners. Using bunch formations so you can't bump your man at the line of scrimmage. Their running game keeps linebackers/linemen on the field. High completion percentage. The opposing defenses Stanford faces. There are a multitude of factors, including that he's a 1st round talent (A mid 1st rounder in my book).

TEs? That's your argument? Stanford's top TE is averaging 2 catches per game.

Please explain to me how Luck is a game manager.

 

[imac_21]

I have never been a proponent of QBR. In fact, I was the one who brought up YAC when I was criticizing it.

I don't think YPA is a definitive indicator that Luck/Stanford's offense is not conservative, but it's a pretty good indicator, IMO. Especially considering Stanford's skill guys.

I have those numbers if you want, but who do we compare it to? We can't compare it to guys like Landry Jones or Robert Griffin because of their offenses. We can't compare it to Blaine Gautier because of conference. Luck has 50 completions of 15+ yards and 20 completions of 25+ yards. For the sake of the argument let's compare him to Matt Barkley. Same conference, pro style offense. Barkley has 48 15+ completions and 17 25+ completions.

And after a quick scan, Luck is #1 in the PAC12 in 25+ yard completions.

Thanks. Are those passes that travel 15+ or 25+ yards in the air, or is there the possibility of YAC being included?

 

[I_am_1z]

Is creating mismatches automatically conservative or game managing? To me that sounds like good coaching. To me it doesn't make sense to knock Luck for that. VD creates enough mismatches to be double teamed, and he goes beyond typical TE routes. A good QB should take advantage of it.

How does Luck look to you when he is called on to make NFL passes? For people who have mentioned the number of attempts, how does he look under high attempts when they open things up?

It's amazing coaching and scheming. When they ask Luck to use the PA it's almost an automatic completion every time.

The guy can make NFL throws that's not what I'm questioning. It's just that the Stanford playcalling, running, and pass protection makes the game too easy for him.

 

[clyde_carbon]

It's amazing coaching and scheming. When they ask Luck to use the PA it's almost an automatic completion every time.

The guy can make NFL throws that's not what I'm questioning. It's just that the Stanford playcalling, running, and pass protection makes the game too easy for him.

That's why Andrew Luck is such a great prospect. His ability to diagnose quickly after turning his back to the defense is what makes him so sought after. This is the same characteristic that made Stafford such a good prospect.

You're giving too much credit to the scheme and not enough for Luck. I know you're not a big fan, but this is Luck's forte if he had one.

 

[I_am_1z]

TEs? That's your argument? Stanford's top TE is averaging 2 catches per game.

Please explain to me how Luck is a game manager.

That wasn't my argument for why he's a game manager, that was listed along with the "multitude" of others premises about why Luck is averaging 9.2 ypa.


Why Luck is a game manager is because he doesn't take risks.

 

[Arete Tzu]

I have never been a proponent of QBR. In fact, I was the one who brought up YAC when I was criticizing it.

I don't think YPA is a definitive indicator that Luck/Stanford's offense is not conservative, but it's a pretty good indicator, IMO. Especially considering Stanford's skill guys.

I have those numbers if you want, but who do we compare it to? We can't compare it to guys like Landry Jones or Robert Griffin because of their offenses. We can't compare it to Blaine Gautier because of conference. Luck has 50 completions of 15+ yards and 20 completions of 25+ yards. For the sake of the argument let's compare him to Matt Barkley. Same conference, pro style offense. Barkley has 48 15+ completions and 17 25+ completions.

And after a quick scan, Luck is #1 in the PAC12 in 25+ yard completions.

If you have time could you stack that against other successful pros in open offenses? I would but I don't know which site lists those stats.

 

[clyde_carbon]

That wasn't my argument for why he's a game manager, that was listed along with the "multitude" of others premises about why Luck is averaging 9.2 ypa.


Why Luck is a game manager is because he doesn't take risks.

What constitutes not taking risks? Low INT numbers? Because he's at the top of the PAC-12 in long yardage completions.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Another thing. Luck is 7/8 on 3rd down 10+ to go. 6 of those 7 completions went over 15 yards. Furthermore, 13 of his 20 25+ yard completions came in the second half of games. 26 of his 50 15+ came in the second half as well.

That's hardly a game manager.

 

[Flyingiguana]

That wasn't my argument for why he's a game manager, that was listed along with the "multitude" of others premises about why Luck is averaging 9.2 ypa.


Why Luck is a game manager is because he doesn't take risks.

thats stupid. a game manager is trent dilfer, shaun hill, dirty sanchez. luck is more restricted by the offense because stanford lacks the big time talent on the outside. put luck on usc or oklahoma state and he'd be putting up video game numbers.

 

[Arete Tzu]

That wasn't my argument for why he's a game manager, that was listed along with the "multitude" of others premises about why Luck is averaging 9.2 ypa.


Why Luck is a game manager is because he doesn't take risks.

There's the difference between us. I don't think risks have to be forced. Some can exploit the right holes so effectively it starts to look easy. The need for risks goes down with big leads.

Luck is basically being knocked for being to effective at what he is called to do. He isn't a gunslinger, he is a surgeon. He does what he needs to. Most of these criticisms aren't a criticism of him, it's the system or team he plays on. But when he throws pro passes he is also effective there.