Phil Kessel will be third in scoring this season

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Okay, poorly written and misleading. Now you know what I mean.



Ken Holland was on record as saying something like "when Lidstrom retires, so am I". Holland knew Lidstrom's value and the impossibility of replacing him. The ultimate kick in the junk though was Rafalski unexpectedly retiring and Stuart wanting to head back to the west coast. If you want to go back further, Jiri Fischer almost dying on the bench and subsequently retiring from cardiac irregularities set the team back. If you want to flash forward, Holland going heavy in on Suter right after Lidstrom retired only to have Suter decide he wanted to play closer to home... which has since become a reoccurring theme/nightmare for various reasons. And it's not like rebuilding your defensive corps is easy to do when your first draft pick every year is in the 20's or 30's... something both Detroit and Pittsburgh have to deal with these days.

It's partially the retirements and unexpectedness of life, but it's also a giant part Holland GM'ing poorly. Let guys like Hudler and Filppula walk for relatively low money while giving fat contracts to Weiss and Howard. It's signing Franzen for 400 years. It's not chasing hard after UFA defencemen like Niskanen and Stralman etc. There's the complete lack of trade activity to give Datsyuk (who is indeed not the captain - whoops) and Zetterberg and Kronwall one last chance at a deep run while they're still productive despite having a million prospects and picks at his disposal to do so.

I don't think Detroit needed to be where they are today. Most of that blame is directed at Holland.

 

[dash]

Hey, I'm okay with Holland letting Hudler find his way to Calgary

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Hey, I'm okay with Holland letting Hudler find his way to Calgary

Best free agency signing this decade? What are the other contenders? Are there any?

 

[dash]

Best free agency signing this decade? What are the other contenders? Are there any?

He has been very good, however I wonder how ruthless BT can be in maximizing the return for a guy like Hudler (unless he sees Jiri being a part of the Flames long term?). Those are the tough decisions for every GM.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

He has been very good, however I wonder how ruthless BT can be in maximizing the return for a guy like Hudler (unless he sees Jiri being a part of the Flames long term?). Those are the tough decisions for every GM.

I'm still kinda surprised he wasn't traded at the draft.

 

[dash]

I'm still kinda surprised he wasn't traded at the draft.

Not to hi-jack the thread, but the Flames have one too many goalies as things stand right now. Also, I wouldn't object to trading Dennis Wideman at the deadline.

 

[pixburgher66]

Actually, I didn't say value, I said judge. I develop my impressions of a player by watching him play first rather than having stats guide my impressions.



Hm. Perhaps I didn't articulate my opinion. My intention was to cite the opposite... My opinion is that Crosby has had offensive stats to back up being "the best" but the eyeball test first tells me otherwise.



With Crosby's leadership, it's not so much about whining or pleading his case to the refs, because that's the job of a captain. It's about the visible frustration he exudes when things don't go his way. He's the captain of the team and the rest of the players follow his lead. When Crosby gets frustrated, the whole team tends to lose focus.

After having been spoiled watching Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg captain my team in succession - a very high benchmark - it can be tough watching emotionally charged and volatile players like Ovechkin and Crosby and captain good teams into icebergs like the Titanic.

The reasons the Pens have failed in the postseason have varied, and never once been solely on Sid. There's an excuse for each I won't go through, but the guy leads the (active) league in postseason PPG. That's...you know, something. He loses his cool, but to claim that's "captaining into an iceberg" is putting far too much value into it. A lot of the failures rest in being poorly built, trading draft picks like candy, etc. I get what you're going for, but when I look at captains of Stanley Cup winning teams, there's not a lot of stoicism.

HockeyBuzz.com - Paul Stewart - Stevie Why? The Unity Among Officials Blog
The Almighty Yzerman, Captain of Captains, BEST OF THE BEST

Look, that shouldn't, and DOESN'T, take much away from the guy. But it's evidence that the argument is fairly irrelevant and in the eye of the beholder. When it comes to this stuff it's nothing BUT bias, because you see what you want to. Player on your team frustrated with a call/no-call going up to the ref? That's leadership, that's making sure you "get the next call". Player on their team? Whining, easily frustrated, over the top, bad leader. Even that BS in the Flyers series in 2011 doesn't hold up here, because it was biased. The Flyers took many ridiculous and dumb penalties...but the Pens didn't score on like 90% of their PPs like the Flyers did. Even Toews, Captain Serious, shows his frustration a lot. Kinda impossible not to in this game. Again, my point is: SIDNEY CROSBY IS ZERO PERCENT OF THE PROBLEM.

 

[RP-29]

It's partially the retirements and unexpectedness of life, but it's also a giant part Holland GM'ing poorly. Let guys like Hudler and Filppula walk for relatively low money while giving fat contracts to Weiss and Howard. It's signing Franzen for 400 years. It's not chasing hard after UFA defencemen like Niskanen and Stralman etc. There's the complete lack of trade activity to give Datsyuk (who is indeed not the captain - whoops) and Zetterberg and Kronwall one last chance at a deep run while they're still productive despite having a million prospects and picks at his disposal to do so.

I don't think Detroit needed to be where they are today. Most of that blame is directed at Holland.

I was okay with letting Hudler walk at the time. He was a bit of a liability defensively at they had good depth on the wing back then. I give huge marks to Hudler for boosting his game and leadership with Calgary. I like him a lot more now than when he was with Detroit and would be genuinely happy for him if he brings a Cup to Calgary.

I completely agree with you about letting Filppula go in favor of Weiss. I ever understood that and it was in my opinion his worst move as GM.

About Franzen, Holland circumvented the new CBA before it became a trend and the loophole closed. Franzen's previous deal was up at the perfect time - just after he got hot in the playoffs. Getting Franzen to resign at $4M/y seemed like a bargain at the time. I'm sure Holland would've done things a bit different if he had a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.

To be fair, who has been available that was a difference maker strong enough to make risking picks and prospects worth it? Tyler Myers was really the only guy I can think of recently and Buffalo's asking price was too steep. It took a Evander Kane type of situation to move Myers and the jury is still out whether Myers will be a difference maker.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I was okay with letting Hudler walk at the time. He was a bit of a liability defensively at they had good depth on the wing back then. I give huge marks to Hudler for boosting his game and leadership with Calgary. I like him a lot more now than when he was with Detroit and would be genuinely happy for him if he brings a Cup to Calgary.

I completely agree with you about letting Filppula go in favor of Weiss. I ever understood that and it was in my opinion his worst move as GM.

About Franzen, Holland circumvented the new CBA before it became a trend and the loophole closed. Franzen's previous deal was up at the perfect time - just after he got hot in the playoffs. Getting Franzen to resign at $4M/y seemed like a bargain at the time. I'm sure Holland would've done things a bit different if he had a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.

To be fair, who has been available that was a difference maker strong enough to make risking picks and prospects worth it? Tyler Myers was really the only guy I can think of recently and Buffalo's asking price was too steep. It took a Evander Kane type of situation to move Myers and the jury is still out whether Myers will be a difference maker.

We, as simple peasants, have no idea who was available. But given the assets Detroit has, it's kind of fucked up that the last significant pre-season trade they made was with Buffalo for Hasek 14 years ago.

 

[RP-29]

We, as simple peasants, have no idea who was available. But given the assets Detroit has, it's kind of fucked up that the last significant pre-season trade they made was with Buffalo for Hasek 14 years ago.

Fair enough. And we also don't know what was offered that other teams rejected that in hindsight would've been a good move for them.

14 years ago, the Cap didn't apply. The rules have changed. Building and sustaining through the draft is the formula for sustained success now. I've got no quarrels over Holland not making many trades. In fact, the opposite is more true; the trade deadline rentals for guys like Legwand have ultimately hindered progress.

 

[RP-29]

The reasons the Pens have failed in the postseason have varied, and never once been solely on Sid. There's an excuse for each I won't go through, but the guy leads the (active) league in postseason PPG. That's...you know, something. He loses his cool, but to claim that's "captaining into an iceberg" is putting far too much value into it. A lot of the failures rest in being poorly built, trading draft picks like candy, etc. I get what you're going for, but when I look at captains of Stanley Cup winning teams, there's not a lot of stoicism.

HockeyBuzz.com - Paul Stewart - Stevie Why? The Unity Among Officials Blog
The Almighty Yzerman, Captain of Captains, BEST OF THE BEST

Look, that shouldn't, and DOESN'T, take much away from the guy. But it's evidence that the argument is fairly irrelevant and in the eye of the beholder. When it comes to this stuff it's nothing BUT bias, because you see what you want to. Player on your team frustrated with a call/no-call going up to the ref? That's leadership, that's making sure you "get the next call". Player on their team? Whining, easily frustrated, over the top, bad leader. Even that BS in the Flyers series in 2011 doesn't hold up here, because it was biased. The Flyers took many ridiculous and dumb penalties...but the Pens didn't score on like 90% of their PPs like the Flyers did. Even Toews, Captain Serious, shows his frustration a lot. Kinda impossible not to in this game. Again, my point is: SIDNEY CROSBY IS ZERO PERCENT OF THE PROBLEM.

Again, I don't have a problem with him working the refs. That's his job. It's the cheap shots and barking at other players that steers the team off course and unfocused. Last year's playoffs I didn't see much of that, they were just overmatched.

And I surely don't think it's only Sid's fault the team has flopped in the playoffs recently, but I also haven't seen a whole lot of the "hop on my back and I'll carry you" type of leadership that legends are made of either.

 

[pixburgher66]

Again, I don't have a problem with him working the refs. That's his job. It's the cheap shots and barking at other players that steers the team off course and unfocused. Last year's playoffs I didn't see much of that, they were just overmatched.

And I surely don't think it's only Sid's fault the team has flopped in the playoffs recently, but I also haven't seen a whole lot of the "hop on my back and I'll carry you" type of leadership that legends are made of either.

2008 and 2009 playoffs he was that guy. Geno just was MORE that guy in 2009. People tend to forget about Sid's run in 2009 because Geno was SO otherworldly. Sid lead in goals. We were robbed of a lot of that goal scoring ability because of the concussion...he doesn't go into those dirty areas as much now. Become more perimeter player. Again: he averages 1.18 ppg in the playoffs. I think so much of what he does is overlooked because he's considered the best, and has to meet those standards to not be a failure...it takes absolute domination for people to think he's carrying the team. People think Kane/Toews are playoff performers because they have memorable goals and three Cups, but they sit at .98 and .87. It's a team sport, and there have been many times that if he had a supporting cast, those numbers would look even better than they do.

 

[RP-29]

2008 and 2009 playoffs he was that guy. Geno just was MORE that guy in 2009. People tend to forget about Sid's run in 2009 because Geno was SO otherworldly. Sid lead in goals. We were robbed of a lot of that goal scoring ability because of the concussion...he doesn't go into those dirty areas as much now. Become more perimeter player. Again: he averages 1.18 ppg in the playoffs. I think so much of what he does is overlooked because he's considered the best, and has to meet those standards to not be a failure...it takes absolute domination for people to think he's carrying the team. People think Kane/Toews are playoff performers because they have memorable goals and three Cups, but they sit at .98 and .87. It's a team sport, and there have been many times that if he had a supporting cast, those numbers would look even better than they do.

I watched every second of the 2008 and 2009 Cup Finals and I not once thought Crosby was carrying the Pens. Was that in earlier series' that got the Pens to the Finals?

Toews and Kane have gotten some clutch goals in their runs and a lot of publicity like all goal scorers do, but the true MVPs of that team are Keith and Seabrook. I can't think of a better defensive pair since the turn of the century than those two and the only other pair that comes close was Weber and Suter. Put Keith and Seabrook on the Pens or Wings instead and we're putting them up there as one of the greatest dynasties ever.

 

[pixburgher66]

I watched every second of the 2008 and 2009 Cup Finals and I not once thought Crosby was carrying the Pens. Was that in earlier series' that got the Pens to the Finals?

Toews and Kane have gotten some clutch goals in their runs and a lot of publicity like all goal scorers do, but the true MVPs of that team are Keith and Seabrook. I can't think of a better defensive pair since the turn of the century than those two and the only other pair that comes close was Weber and Suter. Put Keith and Seabrook on the Pens or Wings instead and we're putting them up there as one of the greatest dynasties ever.

He was better in 2008 Finals wise...and neither Geno or Sid carried the load in the 2009 Finals really. Team effort there. But the runs to the Finals they were ridiculous. Sid in the Caps series in 2009 was incredible. He and OV traded blows left and right. Best playoff series I've ever seen as a Pens fan.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I watched every second of the 2008 and 2009 Cup Finals and I not once thought Crosby was carrying the Pens. Was that in earlier series' that got the Pens to the Finals?

Toews and Kane have gotten some clutch goals in their runs and a lot of publicity like all goal scorers do, but the true MVPs of that team are Keith and Seabrook. I can't think of a better defensive pair since the turn of the century than those two and the only other pair that comes close was Weber and Suter. Put Keith and Seabrook on the Pens or Wings instead and we're putting them up there as one of the greatest dynasties ever.

What does "carrying" even mean here though? I don't know how to argue this point, any argument based on data is going to be met with "you can't prove 'carrying' with stats!" and any argument without data is going to basically be reduced to "Crosby did so carry them!" "Did not!" "Did so!".

 

[RP-29]

He was better in 2008 Finals wise...and neither Geno or Sid carried the load in the 2009 Finals really. Team effort there. But the runs to the Finals they were ridiculous. Sid in the Caps series in 2009 was incredible. He and OV traded blows left and right. Best playoff series I've ever seen as a Pens fan.

Yeah, I was travelling a lot during that spring and remember watching as much as of that series and the Wings' series with Anaheim as I could from hotel room TVs. And many tired mornings after from being amped up on epic playoff hockey.

 

[Tomas Tatar]

Because he hasn't played that many games since 2012?

54 in 2014, and 2013 was a fucking lockout year with 48 games. Come on man lol

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

54 in 2014, and 2013 was a fucking lockout year with 48 games. Come on man lol

And he didn't play the full 48 in 12-13, either lol.

 

[Tomas Tatar]

And he didn't play the full 48 in 12-13, either lol.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. He played in 88 percent of the games that season.
55 games is 67 percent of a 82 game schedule

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. He played in 88 percent of the games that season.
55 games is 67 percent of a 82 game schedule

And that was 3 years ago. He's played 53% of games since.

So by recent standards, expecting him to play 55 games is probably wishful thinking.