Phil Kessel will be third in scoring this season

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't foresee him in top 3 scoring, but...it's not out of the question. It's a combination that's tough to beat. Elite goal scorer and an elite play maker. And I'm not sold on Kunitz being the other member of that line. We'll see though, lots of options.

Who are the other options? Perron?

 

[evolver115]

Who are the other options? Perron?

I'd say the likely three choices are Perron, Kunitz and Plotnikov.

You might even see Dupuis in that spot, as he's played off-wing for them, before.

 

[pixburgher66]

Who are the other options? Perron?

Yeah. And Hornqvist. Or even *sigh* Dupuis (hard to give the guy crap...he was playing lights out pre-blood clots). Hornqvist may fit the line the best. He goes straight for the net. Compliments the other two well. And Perron isn't a bad option. I think he bounces back quite nicely this year. He's a very talented player, just looked lost out there after his first few weeks in Pittsburgh. Having depth will help everyone, though. There are plenty of guys that can jump up there on short or long term.

EDIT: Both RW, aren't they? Never mind that. Still the idea is nice.

 

[evolver115]

Yeah. And Hornqvist. Or even *sigh* Dupuis (hard to give the guy crap...he was playing lights out pre-blood clots). Hornqvist may fit the line the best. He goes straight for the net. Compliments the other two well. And Perron isn't a bad option. I think he bounces back quite nicely this year. He's a very talented player, just looked lost out there after his first few weeks in Pittsburgh. Having depth will help everyone, though. There are plenty of guys that can jump up there on short or long term.

EDIT: Both RW, aren't they? Never mind that. Still the idea is nice.

I think Hornqvist remains with Malkin, and Plotnikov claims the LW spot on the 2nd line with Geno.

If Plotnikov shows he's capable of top six, that would really help the 3rd line, as then Kunitz and Dupuis can be there.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Yeah. And Hornqvist. Or even *sigh* Dupuis (hard to give the guy crap...he was playing lights out pre-blood clots). Hornqvist may fit the line the best. He goes straight for the net. Compliments the other two well. And Perron isn't a bad option. I think he bounces back quite nicely this year. He's a very talented player, just looked lost out there after his first few weeks in Pittsburgh. Having depth will help everyone, though. There are plenty of guys that can jump up there on short or long term.

EDIT: Both RW, aren't they? Never mind that. Still the idea is nice.

That's what I was getting at, unless they've played the opposite wings before (which according to evolver Perron has). Regardless, I still think Kunitz is their best option there for now.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I think Hornqvist remains with Malkin, and Plotnikov claims the LW spot on the 2nd line with Geno.

If Plotnikov shows he's capable of top six, that would really help the 3rd line, as then Kunitz and Dupuis can be there.

Those are some really high hopes for Plotnikov. Anything is possible, but he had 36 pts in Russia last season.

 

[evolver115]

Those are some really high hopes for Plotnikov. Anything is possible, but he had 36 pts in Russia last season.

True, but it's only a 56 game sample size. I don't know how good Lokomotiv was last year, but I've heard coaches discussion about him, and it seems to me they (pens coaches) are hoping he's going to stick in the top six.

Plotnikov has been in Pittsburgh since early August, and has been training with the team at their practice facility. I have high hopes for him. He's been advertised as having a good physical game, so transitioning to the NHL style maybe won't be so difficult.

 

[evolver115]

That's what I was getting at, unless they've played the opposite wings before (which according to evolver Perron has). Regardless, I still think Kunitz is their best option there for now.

I said Dupuis has. When Dan Bylsma is/was your coach, everyone can play the off-wing.

Right Iggy?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I said Dupuis has. When Dan Bylsma is/was your coach, everyone can play the off-wing.

Right Iggy?

That's what I meant.

 

[pixburgher66]

That's what I was getting at, unless they've played the opposite wings before (which according to evolver Perron has). Regardless, I still think Kunitz is their best option there for now.

Perron plays on his off wing I think...he actually prefers it.

 

[RP-29]

Had to laugh at Franzen playing 55 games.

Maybe through the remainder of his entire contract, which I believe will expire sometime during Miley Cyrus' Presidential term.

 

[RP-29]

A couple years ago Ovechkin lead the league with 51 goals, but was a -35 for the season. Might we see something similar out of the Pens top line?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

A couple years ago Ovechkin lead the league with 51 goals, but was a -35 for the season. Might we see something similar out of the Pens top line?

Not that +/- is worth a piss, but why would you think that?

 

[RP-29]

Not that +/- is worth a piss, but why would you think that?

Plus-minus, while flawed, is still a pretty good indicator of defensive zone prowess. A top scorer with a +10 or greater is usually a good indication that he's putting some decent work in on the defensive end of the ice too. A top scorer with a 0 is an indicator that he's playing average in the defensive zone. A top scorer with a -10 or worse indicates he's struggling defensively.

Kessel was -34 last year and is a career -75. Will Crosby help bring Kessel's game into some form of respectability on the defensive end of the ice or will Kessel drag Crosby down with him?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Plus-minus, while flawed, is still a pretty good indicator of defensive zone prowess. A top scorer with a +10 or greater is usually a good indication that he's putting some decent work in on the defensive end of the ice too. A top scorer with a 0 is an indicator that he's playing average in the defensive zone. A top scorer with a -10 or worse indicates he's struggling defensively.

Kessel was -34 last year and is a career -75. Will Crosby help bring Kessel's game into some form of respectability on the defensive end of the ice or will Kessel drag Crosby down with him?

1) That is some kinda bullshit you're spewing there. Plus/minus just shows that a good player has bad linemates/defensive pairings/goalies on the ice with him. It's as representative of an individual player's performance, on either end of the ice, as team point totals. Which is to say it isn't. At all.

2) With the points made in item #1, it's pretty evident why a player like Kessel would have a career -75 playing the past 6 seasons on a team that made the playoffs once in that span.

3) Given that both Crosby and Kunitz were plus players last season, what would lead you to believe that adding a career 30 g/65 pt scorer to the mix would turn them into minus players?

 

[RP-29]

1) That is some kinda bullshit you're spewing there. Plus/minus just shows that a good player has bad linemates/defensive pairings/goalies on the ice with him. It's as representative of an individual player's performance, on either end of the ice, as team point totals. Which is to say it isn't. At all.

It can show that for an isolated plus or an isolated minus, but throughout a season, the stat indicates a trend. And I'm intentionally using the word "indicates".

Look up and down the list of the top scorers in the league for last year. Ask yourself how strong each guy is on the defensive end, then cross-reference their +/-. It's pretty well aligned; not perfect, because like you cited a lot of factors are in play, but a pretty good indication.

2) With the points made in item #1, it's pretty evident why a player like Kessel would have a career -75 playing the past 6 seasons on a team that made the playoffs once in that span.

3) Given that both Crosby and Kunitz were plus players last season, what would lead you to believe that adding a career 30 g/65 pt scorer to the mix would turn them into minus players?

You said yourself that mistakes by other players on the ice can bring a player's plus-minus down. It certainly could happen to Crosby. If Crosby feels like he's gotta continuously cover for Kessel, then it could bring Crosby out of position and snowball from there. Not saying it will happen, but it is conceivable that, while Kessel is a glamorous addition offensively, the defensive end of the ice could suffer even more this year than it did last year... Not a recipe for success.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

It can show that for an isolated plus or an isolated minus, but throughout a season, the stat indicates a trend. And I'm intentionally using the word "indicates".

Look up and down the list of the top scorers in the league for last year. Ask yourself how strong each guy is on the defensive end, then cross-reference their +/-. It's pretty well aligned; not perfect, because like you cited a lot of factors are in play, but a pretty good indication.



You said yourself that mistakes by other players on the ice can bring a player's plus-minus down. It certainly could happen to Crosby. If Crosby feels like he's gotta continuously cover for Kessel, then it could bring Crosby out of position and snowball from there. Not saying it will happen, but it is conceivable that, while Kessel is a glamorous addition offensively, the defensive end of the ice could suffer even more this year than it did last year... Not a recipe for success.

Except anyone with any knowledge of Kessel's advanced stats would know he actually elevates the defensive play of those around him rather than the opposite.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It can show that for an isolated plus or an isolated minus, but throughout a season, the stat indicates a trend. And I'm intentionally using the word "indicates".

Look up and down the list of the top scorers in the league for last year. Ask yourself how strong each guy is on the defensive end, then cross-reference their +/-. It's pretty well aligned; not perfect, because like you cited a lot of factors are in play, but a pretty good indication.



You said yourself that mistakes by other players on the ice can bring a player's plus-minus down. It certainly could happen to Crosby. If Crosby feels like he's gotta continuously cover for Kessel, then it could bring Crosby out of position and snowball from there. Not saying it will happen, but it is conceivable that, while Kessel is a glamorous addition offensively, the defensive end of the ice could suffer even more this year than it did last year... Not a recipe for success.

I would argue that those subjective opinions on the player's defensive ability are often coloured by their plus/minus in the first place, thereby creating a bit of a circular argument.

 

[RP-29]

Except anyone with any knowledge of Kessel's advanced stats would know he actually elevates the defensive play of those around him rather than the opposite.

So some advanced stats you've seen are the ultimate authority of truth and standard stats are complete bogus? The advanced stats I've seen are nothing more than trend indicators as well.

Does Kessel pass the eye test? Meh. From what I've seen, I don't think he's as bad as -34 indicates, but he certainly leaves a lot to be desired, especially since I'm used to watching guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg control all three zones.

You've watched Kessel play a lot more than I have and you're usually fairly objective about such things. Does Kessel pass your eye test in the defensive zone? Do you think he could be a hindrance defensively on a team that already has struggled in their own zone the past couple years?

 

[RP-29]

I would argue that those subjective opinions on the player's defensive ability are often coloured by their plus/minus in the first place, thereby creating a bit of a circular argument.

Fair point. Most of us here actually watch a lot of hockey though and don't have to rely on stats to guide our opinions.