PEDs were not the main reason for offensive numbers.

[Broncosballer32]

The hypocrites in the media, and MLB making big money off of the big numbers.

First of all, let me ask this question, just illustrate the real reasons for the spikes in the numbers in the 90s.

Why do you suppose all of those were all in the national league and no one in the AL actually hit 60 HRs once?Maris's record of 61 homeruns was broken 6 different times in 3 or 4 years by 3 different ball players.

Here is the hint. The national league since between 1993 and 1998 had 3 expansion teams added to the league. One of those teams was Colorado. Where the ball carries so well, that a 9 year old could hit a HR there during that time. Usually, when there is baseball expansion there is a spike in the numbers over the next several years due to the thinning out of quality pitching.

The national league got 3 NEW teams. Colorado, Marlins, and Arizona. While the AL got ONE in Tampa. Then in 1998, the owner of the Brewers, a man named Bud Selig, for mysterious reasons, moved his team from the AL to the NL. Almost as though he had an awareness that the numbers spike as the pitching staffs are thinned out in a league. As a result of Bud Selig MYSTERIOUSLY moving his team from the AL to the NL the NL had TWO MORE teams than the AL.

BTW, the NL Central all of a sudden had more teams than any division in baseball. SO essentially, the between 1993 and 1998 got 4 teams, and the AL got ONE.

You all getting a clue yet as to the reasons why Maris's record was broken 6 different times in 3 years by 3 different ball players ALL in the NATIONAL LEAGUE? Everyone was expecting McGuire to be going after that record BTW in 1998, based on how well he did when he was traded to the Cardinals in 1997. You do not think Selig wanted to ensure that the record would fall by moving his team from the AL to the NL do you? Oh naaaah. Not him.


The other factors. Livened balls, smaller ball parks.

Roids have been around baseball far longer than the 90s. In fact there was a famous article in 1968 in Sports Illustrated about steroids in sports. Including baseball. Thats right. 1968.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I agree that there were MANY factors that contributed to the rise in power numbers from 1994 thru the late 2000s.

Expansion watering down the talent pool among pitchers
A new wave of hitter-friendly parks
A slightly different baseball
The increased emphasis on matchups
More reliance on relief pitching which allows flawed, inferior pitchers to pitch more innings with their straight, hard batting practice fastballs
Hitters spending more time studying their craft, watching video and working in the cages under the new stadiums
Players (even those who didn't use PEDs) becoming more focused on their weight training, conditioning and nutrition

But PEDs do help. There is a lot of physics involved in hitting a home run. Added body mass allows a person to impart more momentum on a struck baseball. So well struck balls have a greater chance to find the gaps or the seats. They also allowed players to recover quicker from injuries, which allowed them to play more games and add to their totals.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree that there were MANY factors that contributed to the rise in power numbers from 1994 thru the late 2000s.

Expansion watering down the talent pool among pitchers
A new wave of hitter-friendly parks
A slightly different baseball
The increased emphasis on matchups
More reliance on relief pitching which allows flawed, inferior pitchers to pitch more innings with their straight, hard batting practice fastballs
Hitters spending more time studying their craft, watching video and working in the cages under the new stadiums
Players (even those who didn't use PEDs) becoming more focused on their weight training, conditioning and nutrition

But PEDs do help. There is a lot of physics involved in hitting a home run. Added body mass allows a person to impart more momentum on a struck baseball. So well struck balls have a greater chance to find the gaps or the seats. They also allowed players to recover quicker from injuries, which allowed them to play more games and add to their totals.

Besides for Peds, all that exists in todays baseball too... even peds does still... so why havent we seen so many HRs recently??

 

[Skinny jeans aint cool]

Besides for Peds, all that exists in todays baseball too... even peds does still... so why havent we seen so many HRs recently??

Not to mention how many of those guys who were caught had a huge drop in numbers. Not saying that PED's make you put up great numbers but they definetly help.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Besides for Peds, all that exists in todays baseball too... even peds does still... so why havent we seen so many HRs recently??

Several reasons...

The talent pool is starting to catch up to the watering down process that occurred due to expansion. That's been accomplished by the continuing influx of latin players, as well as Asian players.

Due to the scarcity of quality pitching and the known tenet of the game that "pitching wins championships", teams refocused on the development of young pitching and its value to the sport. Look how many excellent young pitchers that have risen to the majors in the last 5-6 years. You didn't have that depth of young power arms in the late 90s.

Also, we're still seeing plenty of HR. There's a guy who could conceivably hit 60 this year. They're just coming differently. Instead of seeing all out offensive domination, we're seeing more of the all-or-nothing type hitter. There's still a good amount of HRs. The hitters hitting them simply aren't the all-around offensive behemoths they once were. You're seeing HR at the expense of batting averages and on-base percentages.

We also haven't been seeing many hitters' parks open in the last 5 years or so. All the recently-opened parks have generally been neutral or pitcher-friendly, with the exception of Yankee Stadium. So that trend has been curtailed somewhat as well.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Several reasons...

The talent pool is starting to catch up to the watering down process that occurred due to expansion. That's been accomplished by the continuing influx of latin players, as well as Asian players.

Due to the scarcity of quality pitching and the known tenet of the game that "pitching wins championships", teams refocused on the development of young pitching and its value to the sport. Look how many excellent young pitchers that have risen to the majors in the last 5-6 years. You didn't have that depth of young power arms in the late 90s.

Also, we're still seeing plenty of HR. There's a guy who could conceivably hit 60 this year. They're just coming differently. Instead of seeing all out offensive domination, we're seeing more of the all-or-nothing type hitter. There's still a good amount of HRs. The hitters hitting them simply aren't the all-around offensive behemoths they once were. You're seeing HR at the expense of batting averages and on-base percentages.

We also haven't been seeing many hitters' parks open in the last 5 years or so. All the recently-opened parks have generally been neutral or pitcher-friendly, with the exception of Yankee Stadium. So that trend has been curtailed somewhat as well.

I intended it to be a rhetorical question, telling the OP that his original post was just not well thought out... but apparently i failed in my attempt... will not be the last time that happens...

 

[Broncosballer32]

Do not get me wrong. I am not saying they were not a factor. I am saying they were not the main factor. Especially during that time.

I did mention that during that time it was mainly due to expansion. Anyone remember 1994? Matt Williams was clearly on pace to break Maris's record. Expansion often effects the power numbers over a couple of years.

The other factor in regards to baseball expansion. Just because the the AL only had one team does not mean it did not effect the National League. Remember when Selig instituted inter league play? 1997.

We can also assume they livened balls. We know Colorado now uses humidors to deaden the balls in that ball park and they have been doing that for a while. If you ask me, that should probably not be allowed. Then again, I really do not care all that much.

The Cardinals Bush Stadium in the 70s and 80s was a nightmare for power hitters. Well, home run hitters. If we remember (for those of us that lived then) Herzog used that speed line up. He did not necessarily use that for the offense. He needed reindeer in the outfield that could chase down balls in the allies there. A simple liner to the gap would race to the wall if they did not Willie Mcghee or Coleman or Lonnie Smith chasing those things down.

Anyway, it became a real power hitter dream ball park when the new stadium was built.

 

[Clayton]

Cardinals stadium is still a pitcher's park for the HR ball.

PEDs matter a lot. HR totals went down across the board.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Cardinals stadium is still a pitcher's park for the HR ball.

PEDs matter a lot. HR totals went down across the board.

Yeah. Baseball deadened the balls. Number ONE.

The baseball players are still using PEDs, or have you not received the memo? So if the baseball players are still using the numbers are down across the board, what is the major reason for that in your estimation? What ever your answer is, it is has to include the fact that they are still using PEDs.

Also, if you think baseball players only began using PEDs or roids in the mid to late 90s, then you are truly naive.

No offense. St Louis ball park is NOTHING compared to what it once was for hitters. Especially homerun hitters.

 

[Clayton]

No offense. St Louis ball park is NOTHING compared to what it once was for hitters. Especially homerun hitters.

Sure. I remember people getting worried that we weren't going to be competitive with a 'hitters' park. Funny enough, its a very slight pitchers park but even the old school guys call the park 'perfectly even' and usually just comment on how many parks around the league are hitters parks

 

[Broncosballer32]

Sure. I remember people getting worried that we weren't going to be competitive with a 'hitters' park. Funny enough, its a very slight pitchers park but even the old school guys call the park 'perfectly even' and usually just comment on how many parks around the league are hitters parks

It is not like the old Busch Stadium, where the Herzog was forced to field fleet footed outfielders in order to keep hits in the allies as singles rather than doubles or triples.

 

[Lord Scalious]

The Home Run rates haven't actually depressed too much. Its depressed, but its still better than pre 94 levels the last few years..

The Ever increasing Strikeout Rates have a lot more to do with it.. Which gives you a tip of the cap to the evolution of pitching. Along with as was noted before, where there are not as many guys who can hit for a ton of power with Batting average as it used to be..

 

[Nosferatu]

Sammy Sosa hit 36 home runs in 162 games in 1997 and had never hit more than 40 which he had done only once and then all of a sudden he hits 60 or more 3 of the next 4 years?

Bonds hit more than 49 home runs once and it was 73 in 2001 and he hit more than 40 the next three seasons while averaging less than 400 ab's a year during that stretch.

Yeah it was expansion.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Sammy Sosa hit 36 home runs in 162 games in 1997 and had never hit more than 40 which he had done only once and then all of a sudden he hits 60 or more 3 of the next 4 years?

Bonds hit more than 49 home runs once and it was 73 in 2001 and he hit more than 40 the next three seasons while averaging less than 400 ab's a year during that stretch.

Yeah it was expansion.

Oh, you seem to be so sure they started doing roids that year. You also seem to imply in your naivety that no one ever did roids in baseball prior to 1998. You also seem to ignore that baseball expanded the last time in 1998. You also seem to ignore the fact that I said baseball livened balls and smaller ball parks contributed. 1961 was also a big expansion year in baseball. What happened that year? I forgot.

Why don't you attempt to explain to me why Maris's record was broken 6 different times, by 3 different players, all in the National League. You seem to ignore that the NL got 4 new teams added to it since 1993 as opposed to ONE team in the AL. Plus, there was baseball inter league play that started in 1997, so that baseball expansion in the AL also effected the NL.

Are you in your lame attempt trying to say no one in the American league were juicing?

 

[Lord Scalious]

Wouldn't the Talent pool of quality hitters also be spread thin just like pitchers?

 

[The Cubs fan]

Wouldn't the Talent pool of quality hitters also be spread thin just like pitchers?

Yes, but we are talking about a few elite hitters, not the overall pool.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Wouldn't the Talent pool of quality hitters also be spread thin just like pitchers?

No, that has little or nothing to with the reason why Maris's record was broken 6 times by 3 different players ALL in the National League.

Quality of hitters are also spread thin? Yeah, I guess. There were a lot of dominating pitchers during that time too. Pedro, Roger (roids), Kevin Brown, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Randy, Schilling, Nomo, Mussina, Pettitte, Mariano, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

This subject is about the HR numbers, and most years there is baseball expansion the power numbers spike.

Has anyone attempted to explain why no player in the AL hit 60HRs during this time? No one juicing in the AL?

The players are still roiding. Why have the power numbers dipped? Again, I did not say expansion was the only reason. However, immediately following expansion, the power numbers generally spike over the next few years.

Plus, livened balls. Baseball has a history of doing that.

 

[Nosferatu]

Oh, you seem to be so sure they started doing roids that year. You also seem to imply in your naivety that no one ever did roids in baseball prior to 1998. You also seem to ignore that baseball expanded the last time in 1998. You also seem to ignore the fact that I said baseball livened balls.

Why don't you attempt to explain to me why Maris's record was broken 6 different times, by 3 different players, all in the National League.

Are you in your lame attempt trying to say no one in the American league were juicing?

Gosh, no reason to attack me man.

Explain to me why only absolute known PED users broke Maris' record?

1998 only Greg Vaughn hit at least 50 in the NL aside from Sosa and McGwire shouldn't there have been more guys over 50 due to expansion and livened balls? Aside from Sosa and McGwire the league leaders in home runs looked pretty much how they do every year.

Nobody in the NL even hit 50 in 1997. Maybe thats due to the DBacks not being in the league yet? Florida and Colorado were still pretty new no?

1993 two teams were added to the NL yet only two NL players hit as many as 40 home runs

I really never said anything about anyone doing roids prior to 1998.

Its not like they weren't hitting home runs in the AL, McGwire, Ortiz, ARod and Griffey all went into the 50's. Notice those first three names?

 

[Lord Scalious]

No, that has little or nothing to with the reason why Maris's record was broken 6 times by 3 different players ALL in the National League.

Quality of hitters are also spread thin? Yeah, I guess. There were a lot of dominating pitchers during that time too. Pedro, Roger (roids), Kevin Brown, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Randy, Schilling, Nomo, Mussina, Pettitte, Mariano, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

This subject is about the HR numbers, and most years there is baseball expansion the power numbers spike.

Has anyone attempted to explain why no player in the AL hit 60HRs during this time? No one juicing in the AL?

The players are still roiding. Why have the power numbers dipped? Again, I did not say expansion was the only reason. However, immediately following expansion, the power numbers generally spike over the next few years.

Plus, livened balls. Baseball has a history of doing that.

Those circumstances that are probably worth something, maybe 10 HRs at best. Talent spreading thin from the MLB pool anyways. It did not take long for the Marlins and D Backs to stop being push overs

And the Stats agree, when you look at 92 to 93. But the AL had the same spike from 92 to 93. The AL home run leaderboad was going up to...just like the NL.

AL had 4 50 Homers in 3 years, while the NL had none.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Those circumstances that are probably worth something, maybe 10 HRs at best. Talent spreading thin from the MLB pool anyways. It did not take long for the Marlins and D Backs to stop being push overs

And the Stats agree, when you look at 92 to 93. But the AL had the same spike from 92 to 93. The AL home run leaderboad was going up to...just like the NL.

AL had 4 50 Homers in 3 years, while the NL had none.

Again, I am not saying PEDs did not have any effect. Of course they did. However, the notion that players only started taking them in 1998 is absurd.

So, assuming that PEDs had been around for longer than 1998, then what are the other factors involved.

We know that baseball was fully invested in promoting the homerun chase of Maris. They made adds....CHICKS LOVE THE LONG BALL. Selig further thinned out the Naitonal League (everyone knew McGuire was going after the record) by moving his team into the NL Central. They certainly played ignorance and turned a blind eye to the notion of PEDs. I am all but certain there were livened balls.

PEDs played a role, but not the end all and be all of that so called "steroid era." The media gets all obsessed with one issue and that is all they focus on. To the point where they have us believing that players only started taking them in 1998.

Look up the article in SI from 1968. It focuses on steroids and PEDs in sports. Baseball was one of those sports. 1968. Steroids was actually "invented" in labs in the early 40s.

Anyway, the focus of the era that SAVED BASEBALL is only on roids. The media also greatly benefitted, and if not for that season, there is a real possiblity baseball was doomed after 1994. Numbers were down all over.

Now those same entities (baseball and the media) that reaped those same benefits focus on ONE ISSUE and crush those that saved the game.

This is the point.