P.J. Fleck >>> Jim Harbaugh

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

You're such a pathetic homer. It doesn't matter where those teams finished. When the games happened they were top 10 teams. It's funny how you insist on ignoring that fact.

You can fool yourself into thinking otherwise but JH's record vs. top 10 teams since his return is 2-11.

Wait, so you're arguing that the most important ranking is the ranking at the time of the game, not how the team finished? You realize this actually makes Michigan look a lot better, as we've taken down a lot of teams that were ranked when we played them and finished the season unranked...right?

I'm not saying Harbaugh's record vs. the top 10 is great, but there's a few games left off your list. Like even this year, we throttled ND and with their bowl win it's very possible they'll end up in the top 10 to finish the year.

I'm not sure that makes me a homer. Maybe listen to my argument before irrationally defaulting to your normal position. I'm also not saying final rankings are the end all, but I'd much rather beat teams that finish the year ranked than teams who are just ranked when we play them. Like last year, beating Wisconsin (ranked 15th at the time) turned out to not be impressive, as they finished 7-5 in the regular season (8-5 after the season) and unranked.

 

[Wamu]

It's worse than 2-11 now isn't it? I thought that was his record coming into this season.

That's if you factor in his record vs. all ranked teams at the time of the game. But mNb09 has tricked himself into thinking that a loss to a top 10 team during the regular doesn't count as a top 10 loss unless that team finishes the season in the top 10. He really is one crazy & delusional homer.

 

[Wamu]

Wait, so you're arguing that the most important ranking is the ranking at the time of the game, not how the team finished? You realize this actually makes Michigan look a lot better, as we've taken down a lot of teams that were ranked when we played them and finished the season unranked...right?

I'm not saying Harbaugh's record vs. the top 10 is great, but there's a few games left off your list. Like even this year, we throttled ND and with their bowl win it's very possible they'll end up in the top 10 to finish the year.

I'm not sure that makes me a homer. Maybe listen to my argument before irrationally defaulting to your normal position. I'm also not saying final rankings are the end all, but I'd much rather beat teams that finish the year ranked than teams who are just ranked when we play them. Like last year, beating Wisconsin (ranked 15th at the time) turned out to not be impressive, as they finished 7-5 in the regular season (8-5 after the season) and unranked.

I'm not arguing anything. All I did was post some actual numbers that you don't want to believe. But in typical fashion you choose to ignore them & try to create your own reality. You're the only one arguing because you can't accept the total lack of accomplishments by JH since his return to ann arbor.

And yes you are without a doubt a homer. He's 2-11 vs. top 10 teams. But in your mind I'm sure you think he's 2-0.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

That's if you factor in his record vs. all ranked teams at the time of the game. But mNb09 has tricked himself into thinking that a loss to a top 10 team during the regular doesn't count as a top 10 loss unless that team finishes the season in the top 10. He really is one crazy & delusional homer.

Beating a top 10 team that doesn't finish top 10, really isn't a top 10 team; now is it? And for the record, most of those you listed finished top 10 so I'm not arguing away any of the losses dolt. I'm only suggesting that a few top 10 wins aren't on the list because they weren't ranked there when the game was played.

And in looking, we beat ND this year. They were ranked 8th when we did it. They're currently 14th and we don't know how they'll finish. That's not a top 10 win unless ND finished ranked in the top 10; it doesn't matter that they were 8th when we beat them.

Last year we went 3-6 against "ranked" teams when we played them. Two of those teams (MSU and Wisconsin) finished unranked. I wouldn't count those as ranked wins. You would and you're calling me a homer? It's bizarre.

 

[Win TWINS!!!]

Watching this thread, is like watching recess at a school for kids with special needs. Especially when @Wamu joins in....

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

I'm not arguing anything. All I did was post some actual numbers that you don't want to believe. But in typical fashion you choose to ignore them & try to create your own reality. You're the only one arguing because you can't accept the total lack of accomplishments by JH since his return to ann arbor.

And yes you are without a doubt a homer. He's 2-11 vs. top 10 teams. But in your mind I'm sure you think he's 2-0.

And I'm saying your numbers don't tell the whole story. Even this year Michigan played ND when they were ranked 8th. By your own definition that's a top 10 team we beat; they were top 10 when we played. Again, my point doesn't negate any of the losses you're pointing out. I'm just saying your stats purposefully ignore the games he's actually won by this bizarre definition of *ranked at the time of the game.

 

[Wamu]

And I'm saying your numbers don't tell the whole story. Even this year Michigan played ND when they were ranked 8th. By your own definition that's a top 10 team we beat; they were top 10 when we played. Again, my point doesn't negate any of the losses you're pointing out. I'm just saying your stats purposefully ignore the games he's actually won by this bizarre definition of *ranked at the time of the game.

I'm sure you'll say this site's invalid since it goes against your incorrect homeristic thoughts but go to fbsschedules.com & look UofM's schedule up. According to them at the time of the game UofM played 3 top 10 teams. espn.com has it listed the same way.

And what I posted in comment # 314 also mentions JH's wins vs. the top 10. Funny (but not surprising) you don't have an issue with the 2 wins. But have an issue with 11 losses.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

I'm sure you'll say this site's invalid since it goes against your incorrect homeristic thoughts but go to fbsschedules.com & look UofM's schedule up. According to them at the time of the game UofM played 3 top 10 teams. espn.com has it listed the same way.

And what I posted in comment # 314 also mentions JH's wins vs. the top 10. Funny (but not surprising) you don't have an issue with the 2 wins. But have an issue with 11 losses.

Nope, I have no problem with the 11 losses. I'd just include teams that finished top 10 in the list; good or bad. Michigan played a few this year, we won 1 of them and lost 2-3.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You keep spewing this nonsense.

Yes, we know. In Nebraska, it is all the coaches fault, except for Scott Frost. It isn’t his fault........yet.

Has nothing to do with the talent level at Nebraska, or the fact you are now in the B1G West and instead of rivals like Texas and Oklahoma, your rivals are now Wisconsin and Iowa. Nothing to do with basically no in state talent or talent in surrounding states.

It is all on the coaches.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

It's a PJ Fleck thread. So I'm arguing how PJ Fleck will want to stay right where he is.

No one has made a good enough argument as for why he'd want to leave.


Give him a couple more years, to either succeed in what he's promised to accomplish at UMn, or to figure out for sure that the recruits just won't go there no matter what. By then maybe Saban will want to retire? Dabo is far too young, and OSU just hired a new coach who seemed to do well. So what other school has enough to draw him away before he's accomplished what he's promised to do at Minnesota, AND is willing to take his whole culture thing as well?

I already made the point on why he’d leave. It is Minnesota.

I even gave you about half the teams he’d leave Minnesota for.

And EVERY coach makes promises — Fleck made those same promises at Western Michigan. That is how coaches sell their stories. In the end, it is a business and Fleck will leave as soon as he finds a school he can recruit more talent too. It is the nature of the sport. Only a handful of programs are going to bring in the talent needed to compete nationally and location is a HUGE advantage.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

I already made the point on why he’d leave. It is Minnesota.

I even gave you about half the teams he’d leave Minnesota for.

And EVERY coach makes promises — Fleck made those same promises at Western Michigan. That is how coaches sell their stories. In the end, it is a business and Fleck will leave as soon as he finds a school he can recruit more talent too. It is the nature of the sport. Only a handful of programs are going to bring in the talent needed to compete nationally and location is a HUGE advantage.

I think Fleck is gone next year if Minnesota has another decent year. Minnesota is an OK P5 program, but as soon as a big name comes calling I think he's gone.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

I already made the point on why he’d leave. It is Minnesota.

I even gave you about half the teams he’d leave Minnesota for.

And EVERY coach makes promises — Fleck made those same promises at Western Michigan. That is how coaches sell their stories. In the end, it is a business and Fleck will leave as soon as he finds a school he can recruit more talent too. It is the nature of the sport. Only a handful of programs are going to bring in the talent needed to compete nationally and location is a HUGE advantage.

No, you are a moron. Schools all over the country have won Natl Titles.


Oklahoma? Nebraska? BYU? Colorado? Washington? None of those places are recruit rich areas. And most of those have other schools in their state that they have to compete with. YET, somehow they have all done something Michigan struggles to seem to do. Not since the 1940s. I mean, one shared title in 70 years?

Pathetic.


And yes, every coach makes promises, but he accomplished all he could at WMU. There was nowhere higher to go there. He accomplished his goal there. Showed them how it's done, AND DID IT. Undefeated season. It's WMU, it will NEVER get an invite to the cfp. Minnesota can.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

I think Fleck is gone next year if Minnesota has another decent year. Minnesota is an OK P5 program, but as soon as a big name comes calling I think he's gone.

"OK P5 program"

You mean like Clemson was?

From 1992 to 2011, just ONE single season finishing higher than 21, and only 7 times total in the Top 25 over 20 years.

That is almost twice as many years NOT in the rankings at all, than in the Top 21-25.


Hardly a powerhouse much less a blue blood.


derp

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

And Michigan needed the US Govt to rob players from other B1G schools to play for them during World War 2, and Michigan needed a couple former Gophers as his top Asst Coaches, to get built up to do well in the years just after the war.

But those assistants left and the Govt stopped forcing players to go to Michigan and those former Gophers took over. There was hardly a season from 48 to 62 that a former Gopher, or the Gophers, didn't finish the season ranked between #1-#5. Some seasons there were TWO teams in the Top 5 coached by former Gophers.

30 times in those 15 years a former Gopher or the Gophers or a UMn Bulldog coached by a former Gopher got into the Top 5. Two other times teams finished #6.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

That's if you factor in his record vs. all ranked teams at the time of the game. But mNb09 has tricked himself into thinking that a loss to a top 10 team during the regular doesn't count as a top 10 loss unless that team finishes the season in the top 10. He really is one crazy & delusional homer.

Gotta side against you on this one. The only ranking that matters is the ranking at the end of the season. Sorry man.

 

[Blackshirts BLVD]

Yes, we know. In Nebraska, it is all the coaches fault, except for Scott Frost. It isn’t his fault........yet.

Has nothing to do with the talent level at Nebraska, or the fact you are now in the B1G West and instead of rivals like Texas and Oklahoma, your rivals are now Wisconsin and Iowa. Nothing to do with basically no in state talent or talent in surrounding states.

It is all on the coaches.

How do you keep your confidence up being the dumbest person in the room constantly and consistently?

Maybe you should go give the Michigan players some of that retarded chimp confidence.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

"OK P5 program"

You mean like Clemson was?

From 1992 to 2011, just ONE single season finishing higher than 21, and only 7 times total in the Top 25 over 20 years.

That is almost twice as many years NOT in the rankings at all, than in the Top 21-25.


Hardly a powerhouse much less a blue blood.


derp

Here's the difference. Clemson is in a state that sits a 20 minute drive away from one of the states with the most talent in the entire country, Georgia. Minnesota sits next to a few states with almost no elite football talent on any given year. When Clemson started getting good, they were able to significantly improve by getting "scraps" from the surrounding states, which Minnesota can't rely on. In Dabo's first full recruiting class (2010) 1/3 of it came from Alabama and Georgia. Not to mention typically significantly more in-state talent than Minnesota. Not saying it's impossible, but I'd argue it's significantly more likely Fleck leaves for a bigger name after a few years than Minnesota turning into Clemson. I could see Minnesota turning into what Wisconsin is but the limiting factor to Wisconsin, like Minnesota, is access to talent.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Here's the difference. Clemson is in a state that sits a 20 minute drive away from one of the states with the most talent in the entire country, Georgia. Minnesota sits next to a few states with almost no elite football talent on any given year. When Clemson started getting good, they were able to significantly improve by getting "scraps" from the surrounding states, which Minnesota can't rely on. In Dabo's first full recruiting class (2010) 1/3 of it came from Alabama and Georgia. Not to mention typically significantly more in-state talent than Minnesota. Not saying it's impossible, but I'd argue it's significantly more likely Fleck leaves for a bigger name after a few years than Minnesota turning into Clemson. I could see Minnesota turning into what Wisconsin is but the limiting factor to Wisconsin, like Minnesota, is access to talent.

That has never been Wisconsin's limiting factor. Wisconsin never figured out how to get a high quality QB or enough high quality WRs for an above average QB to throw to. Fleck has already seemingly done in 3 years what Wisconsin has never been able to do. UW has the better running game, but you can't win Natl Titles with a one dimensional offense.

And sure, Clemson may be near a state with a ton of recruits, but so is the Univ of South Carolina, FSU, UF, UCF, USF, Miami, Georgia Tech, Georgia, Georgia Southern, Tennessee, Memphis, Alabama, Auburn, UNC, NCSU, Duke, and a whole bunch of G5 and good FCS schools that I don't care to have to figure out.


Minny on the other hand has Wisc, Iowa, Iowa St and NDSU? And that's it.


And Minny is doing fine in Texas, Florida, Georgia, Missouri, etc..

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

That has never been Wisconsin's limiting factor. Wisconsin never figured out how to get a high quality QB or enough high quality WRs for an above average QB to throw to. Fleck has already seemingly done in 3 years what Wisconsin has never been able to do. UW has the better running game, but you can't win Natl Titles with a one dimensional offense.

And sure, Clemson may be near a state with a ton of recruits, but so is the Univ of South Carolina, FSU, UF, UCF, USF, Miami, Georgia Tech, Georgia, Georgia Southern, Tennessee, Memphis, Alabama, Auburn, UNC, NCSU, Duke, and a whole bunch of G5 and good FCS schools that I don't care to have to figure out.


Minny on the other hand has Wisc, Iowa, Iowa St and NDSU? And that's it.


And Minny is doing fine in Texas, Florida, Georgia, Missouri, etc..

Like I said, Minnesota could turn into Wisconsin. Win a lot of the easy in-division games, lose in the CCG and maybe win a decent bowl. Clemson has an extremely easy path to a league title every year and exists in a recruiting hotbed so they're able to take that success and compete nationally.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Like I said, Minnesota could turn into Wisconsin. Win a lot of the easy in-division games, lose in the CCG and maybe win a decent bowl. Clemson has an extremely easy path to a league title every year and exists in a recruiting hotbed so they're able to take that success and compete nationally.

Dude? Turn into Wisconsin? I just said, Fleck is NOT going to turn the Gopher's into a one dimensional running team like Wisconsin.

And Minny DID beat Auburn, who beat Alabama and Oregon. And that was in only Fleck's 3rd year at the helm. His newest recruiting class is his best so far, and the best for UMn as far back as 247 has been keeping track.

We only had five 4 stars on the whole team this last season. He got 4 in this last recruiting class. At this rate, in 4-5 years he could have 20 of them on the roster, and that is if he doesn't keep improving.