OT: Student shoots himself at LaSalle HS

[cincygrad]

Texas, Ark, Miss, AL, Tenn, etc all have some of the largest % firearm ownership in the US... and the lowest overall crime. The exceptions are big cities like Memphis, Dallas, etc.. where people obtain guns illegally and don't obey the laws anyway.

South Central is a prime example...gun laws won't matter there at all.

If they banned all guns tomorrow, that would be the new illegal trade coming across the border and S. Central would still be armed. Only way to stop it would be ban all guns AND shut the border... but that will never happen as the liberals are too concerned about the hispanic vote.

But gun laws do tend to matter when viewing health data..... States with looser gun laws have more gun related injuries and deaths. This is just a fact. I have no dog in the race.

 

[flamingrey]

Texas, Ark, Miss, AL, Tenn, etc all have some of the largest % firearm ownership in the US... and the lowest overall crime. The exceptions are big cities like Memphis, Dallas, etc.. where people obtain guns illegally and don't obey the laws anyway.

South Central is a prime example...gun laws won't matter there at all.

If they banned all guns tomorrow, that would be the new illegal trade coming across the border and S. Central would still be armed. Only way to stop it would be ban all guns AND shut the border... but that will never happen as the liberals are too concerned about the hispanic vote.

I love how you have to twist the argument to make your case.

Nobody (NOBODY!) has suggesting BANNING guns. That's a lie.

Come up with a more realistic example to support your argument.

Thanks.

 

[flamingrey]

And what the hell is "overall crime". Way to be vague with your "facts".

 

[cincygrad]

The gun came from his own home. Owned by his parents. As predicted.

If you want to own guns, it would be helpful if you took measures to safely use them, store them and dispose of them when finished.

 

[flamingrey]

The gun came from his own home. Owned by his parents. As predicted.

If you want to own guns, it would be helpful if you took measures to safely use them, store them and dispose of them when finished.

I don't agree with this. Had he been a little kid, then absolutely yes. But he was in high school. I'm assuming the parents kept a gun in the house - likely in a safe - for security. There is no reason for a child in high school not to have the gun safe code for that same safety.

In this case I don't really think there is anything more the parents could have done to prevent this from happening.

 

[vancelot23]

I grow tired of hearing about accidental shootings due to irresponsible parents leaving them laying around. Last year, a 4 yr old got ahold of a handgun IN THE FUCKING CAR and accidentally shot his baby sibling in the head. People like that should never be allowed to own any type of gun again. Idiots should be charged with manslaughter.

 

[cincygrad]

I don't agree with this. Had he been a little kid, then absolutely yes. But he was in high school. I'm assuming the parents kept a gun in the house - likely in a safe - for security. There is no reason for a child in high school not to have the gun safe code for that same safety.

In this case I don't really think there is anything more the parents could have done to prevent this from happening.

So you don't want the 17 year old to legally own a gun (federal law is 21 for a handgun), but it's okay for him to legally have access to the gun?

 

[flamingrey]

So you don't want the 17 year old to legally own a gun (federal law is 21 for a handgun), but it's okay for him to legally have access to the gun?

I've never said I don't want a 17 year old to own a gun, but that's a separate argument imo. I have no opinion on that one way or the other.

That said, being able to own a gun and being able to handle a gun are 2 different things. A 17 year old is more than capable of being able to properly handle a gun and use it for self defense purposes. If I had a 17 year old, he would absolutely have access to my gun(s) for when I'm not around (to be used in defense within the home).

Furthermore, this would be an issue if 1) a 17 year old were less capable than a 21 year old in handling a gun, or 2) a 21 year old would be less likely to take his own life. I don't think either is the case in the situation.

 

[cincygrad]

I've never said I don't want a 17 year old to own a gun, but that's a separate argument imo. I have no opinion on that one way or the other.

That said, being able to own a gun and being able to handle a gun are 2 different things. A 17 year old is more than capable of being able to properly handle a gun and use it for self defense purposes. If I had a 17 year old, he would absolutely have access to my gun(s) for when I'm not around (to be used in defense within the home).

Furthermore, this would be an issue if 1) a 17 year old were less capable than a 21 year old in handling a gun, or 2) a 21 year old would be less likely to take his own life. I don't think either is the case in the situation.

Handling a gun has many meanings. A child that attempts to kill himself in a class full of his peers is clearly not mentally capable of handling a gun. The obvious point here (and one that will unfortunately thrown around as the catch-all term for all gun incidents) is mental health. I'm sure suicide/homicide rates are not taken into account when making federal age limits for guns (21 years).... Though I don't know, I strongly suspect regulation of emotions is better after the age of 21 -- But again, I don't have the stats or how that would relate to suicide or responsible gun use so I should just drop it.

 

[bengaldoug]

Enforcement of the laws already on the books would help. Strict enforcement in the case of gun crimes would help. Personal responsibility is the answer in most cases. No law can be created that will prevent an idiot from proving he is an idiot. In the end the idiot has to be held responsible, instead of being made excuses for.

You can't fix stupid.

 

[kramer1]

If this happened in a Cincy public school and the kid was black the city would be in an uproar. He'd be called a terrorist. This city I live in sickens me. It really does.

A rich, white kid brings a loaded weapon into a private Catholic school and discharges it and we're supposed to "pray for him." Give me a fucking break. This kid is a criminal and should be locked up for a very long time.

 

[SEC Official]

And what the hell is "overall crime". Way to be vague with your "facts".

Flaming, I think you are jumping on the wrong person. I am involved in the 2nd amendment debate via politics on a daily level. I support the 2nd amendment...

The only point I was trying to make is (a) you can have gun control until you (b) close the border.

If there is demand, people will create supply. As laws reduce supply, and there is still demand, prices go up. Then people risk importing them... just like Cocaine, etc.

But as much of a 2nd amendment supporter as I am, I do support some level of gun laws... specifically around putting adults who allow children to get guns and kill themselves or others. And mentally challenged people... outside that, I feel every responsible adult who wants to be armed, should.

If you want to get into facts... feel free to ask me and I will give you as much as you can handle.

 

[SEC Official]

The problem is our society...

Let me ask you this to make my point: What has changed in the last 40 years? When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everyone I know had a gun. Kids as young as 8 were out shooting with their parents. Guns were never locked up... in fact many times they were in the back window of a pickup. And yet you didn't see the kind of shit we do today? Why?

I myself use to spend 1 month every summer with my grandfather working a huge farm off Interstate 40 in East Tenn. He would drop me off in the early AM on the top of a ridge not 30 yards from the interstate with a 30-06, a large jug of lemonade, and an big umbrella to keep the sun off me. I was to shoot animals in his garden.... because it was 30 acres and was his livelyhood. (and yes I know, a 30-06 explodes any small animal... he didn't have a 22-250 back then). I remember like it was yesterday a state tropper pulling over on the interstate and walking up the hill to talk to me. And that was all we did was talk... he was interested in what I was up to and how "Mac" was doing (which was my grandfather). Then he got in that old car with big blue light on the top and drove away. No big deal... I was 10 years old.

Today, you see a 10 year old on the side of the highway with a 30-06 and a scope... they would send the SWAT team, FBI, etc.

So what has changed? Mass shootings were almost a non-event back them..

The answer is I had a good family, two parents, who taught me respect.. not just for people but for guns, the land, animals, etc. In sports, we got a trophy for finishing in the top 3.. there were no "everyone gets a trophy"... if I got in trouble at school, I got paddled... and my parents would get pissed at ME if they found out... they didn't get mad at the school and threaten to sue them. Our society is out of control.. and the kids are where we see it most.

 

[MarkOU]

The problem is our society...

Let me ask you this to make my point: What has changed in the last 40 years? When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everyone I know had a gun. Kids as young as 8 were out shooting with their parents. Guns were never locked up... in fact many times they were in the back window of a pickup. And yet you didn't see the kind of shit we do today? Why?

I myself use to spend 1 month every summer with my grandfather working a huge farm off Interstate 40 in East Tenn. He would drop me off in the early AM on the top of a ridge not 30 yards from the interstate with a 30-06, a large jug of lemonade, and an big umbrella to keep the sun off me. I was to shoot animals in his garden.... because it was 30 acres and was his livelyhood. (and yes I know, a 30-06 explodes any small animal... he didn't have a 22-250 back then). I remember like it was yesterday a state tropper pulling over on the interstate and walking up the hill to talk to me. And that was all we did was talk... he was interested in what I was up to and how "Mac" was doing (which was my grandfather). Then he got in that old car with big blue light on the top and drove away. No big deal... I was 10 years old.

Today, you see a 10 year old on the side of the highway with a 30-06 and a scope... they would send the SWAT team, FBI, etc.

So what has changed? Mass shootings were almost a non-event back them..

The answer is I had a good family, two parents, who taught me respect.. not just for people but for guns, the land, animals, etc. In sports, we got a trophy for finishing in the top 3.. there were no "everyone gets a trophy"... if I got in trouble at school, I got paddled... and my parents would get pissed at ME if they found out... they didn't get mad at the school and threaten to sue them. Our society is out of control.. and the kids are where we see it most.

What has changed?

The kids are where we see it most

I think that's your answer. I agree with what you said and what's changed is how are kids are educated. Remember tornado and fire drills? Well now they have lock down shooter on the grounds drills.

Mandatory P.E. Now it's voluntary.

The education system is what has changed. For the worse.

 

[vancelot23]

The problem is our society...

Let me ask you this to make my point: What has changed in the last 40 years? When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everyone I know had a gun. Kids as young as 8 were out shooting with their parents. Guns were never locked up... in fact many times they were in the back window of a pickup. And yet you didn't see the kind of shit we do today? Why?

I myself use to spend 1 month every summer with my grandfather working a huge farm off Interstate 40 in East Tenn. He would drop me off in the early AM on the top of a ridge not 30 yards from the interstate with a 30-06, a large jug of lemonade, and an big umbrella to keep the sun off me. I was to shoot animals in his garden.... because it was 30 acres and was his livelyhood. (and yes I know, a 30-06 explodes any small animal... he didn't have a 22-250 back then). I remember like it was yesterday a state tropper pulling over on the interstate and walking up the hill to talk to me. And that was all we did was talk... he was interested in what I was up to and how "Mac" was doing (which was my grandfather). Then he got in that old car with big blue light on the top and drove away. No big deal... I was 10 years old.

Today, you see a 10 year old on the side of the highway with a 30-06 and a scope... they would send the SWAT team, FBI, etc.

So what has changed? Mass shootings were almost a non-event back them..

The answer is I had a good family, two parents, who taught me respect.. not just for people but for guns, the land, animals, etc. In sports, we got a trophy for finishing in the top 3.. there were no "everyone gets a trophy"... if I got in trouble at school, I got paddled... and my parents would get pissed at ME if they found out... they didn't get mad at the school and threaten to sue them. Our society is out of control.. and the kids are where we see it most.

Agree with every word of that. Society is a trainwreck. Things have changed. That's why laws need to change too. Laws that worked in the late '70s no longer are appropriate. At the very least, there should be an extensive background check to buy any gun. But the dipshit Republicans who blocked it don't care. They're fine with a shooting every now and then as long as they can say they won something. Fuck every one of them.

 

[SEC Official]

Agree with every word of that. Society is a trainwreck. Things have changed. That's why laws need to change too. Laws that worked in the late '70s no longer are appropriate. At the very least, there should be an extensive background check to buy any gun. But the dipshit Republicans who blocked it don't care. They're fine with a shooting every now and then as long as they can say they won something. Fuck every one of them.

Vance,

Just my perspective, because it sounds like you are angry at some republicans.. and I don't disagree...

But the two party system is broke and they are using the American public like a bunch of lemmings.

The liberals want to tax everyone to death and increase entitlement spending ... the end result will be economic collapse as they continue to spend us into a death spiral (in fact it is already well under way).

The republicans want to extend tax breaks to the wealthy corporations, bail outs, and wage war... the end result is the same .. economic collapse as we borrow until all hell breaks loose.

So, same destination.. just different routes. The only true solution is a balanced budget that begins to chip away at our debt.. and to get there some tough decisions have to be made... (e.g. US Postal Service, etc.)

The politicians and the media keep all the lemmings in our country fighting with one another on topics like Gay Marriage while they go off and laugh behind out backs as they pillage our country. Example: Obamacare gets shoved down our throats.. meanwhile they are all trying to pass an exception for the congress and senate so they don't have to participate... is that fair? Not even close to "for the people, by the people"

And if things don't change, when bad economic turmoil comes, people's perspectives on guns will change ... even on the left. That is also part of our issue today, the economy isn't great and people lose hope which equals crazy desperate people. And if that day comes, the only currency will be (a) food, (b) medicine, and (c) guns. Money won't be worth the paper it is printed on.

Having been through natural disasters where police and government can't help you... and watching a looter scumbag hold a knife to my pregnant wife's stomach... I told myself never again. Thankfully my brother in law is a FBI agent who was in my home after the hurricane. And he made it painfully clear that you have to protect yourself.... police are only there to (a) prevent crimes and (b) solve the ones that have already occurred. I was not anti-gun, but I didn't feel the need to own one with little ones in the house... but after that day I found out the hard way that with little ones in the house, I was almost obligated to own one.

 

[bengaldoug]

The problem is our society...

Let me ask you this to make my point: What has changed in the last 40 years? When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everyone I know had a gun. Kids as young as 8 were out shooting with their parents. Guns were never locked up... in fact many times they were in the back window of a pickup. And yet you didn't see the kind of shit we do today? Why?

I myself use to spend 1 month every summer with my grandfather working a huge farm off Interstate 40 in East Tenn. He would drop me off in the early AM on the top of a ridge not 30 yards from the interstate with a 30-06, a large jug of lemonade, and an big umbrella to keep the sun off me. I was to shoot animals in his garden.... because it was 30 acres and was his livelyhood. (and yes I know, a 30-06 explodes any small animal... he didn't have a 22-250 back then). I remember like it was yesterday a state tropper pulling over on the interstate and walking up the hill to talk to me. And that was all we did was talk... he was interested in what I was up to and how "Mac" was doing (which was my grandfather). Then he got in that old car with big blue light on the top and drove away. No big deal... I was 10 years old.

Today, you see a 10 year old on the side of the highway with a 30-06 and a scope... they would send the SWAT team, FBI, etc.

So what has changed? Mass shootings were almost a non-event back them..

The answer is I had a good family, two parents, who taught me respect.. not just for people but for guns, the land, animals, etc. In sports, we got a trophy for finishing in the top 3.. there were no "everyone gets a trophy"... if I got in trouble at school, I got paddled... and my parents would get pissed at ME if they found out... they didn't get mad at the school and threaten to sue them. Our society is out of control.. and the kids are where we see it most.

Nailed it.

 

[bengaldoug]

The problem is our society...

Let me ask you this to make my point: What has changed in the last 40 years? When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everyone I know had a gun. Kids as young as 8 were out shooting with their parents. Guns were never locked up... in fact many times they were in the back window of a pickup. And yet you didn't see the kind of shit we do today? Why?

I myself use to spend 1 month every summer with my grandfather working a huge farm off Interstate 40 in East Tenn. He would drop me off in the early AM on the top of a ridge not 30 yards from the interstate with a 30-06, a large jug of lemonade, and an big umbrella to keep the sun off me. I was to shoot animals in his garden.... because it was 30 acres and was his livelyhood. (and yes I know, a 30-06 explodes any small animal... he didn't have a 22-250 back then). I remember like it was yesterday a state tropper pulling over on the interstate and walking up the hill to talk to me. And that was all we did was talk... he was interested in what I was up to and how "Mac" was doing (which was my grandfather). Then he got in that old car with big blue light on the top and drove away. No big deal... I was 10 years old.

Today, you see a 10 year old on the side of the highway with a 30-06 and a scope... they would send the SWAT team, FBI, etc.

So what has changed? Mass shootings were almost a non-event back them..

The answer is I had a good family, two parents, who taught me respect.. not just for people but for guns, the land, animals, etc. In sports, we got a trophy for finishing in the top 3.. there were no "everyone gets a trophy"... if I got in trouble at school, I got paddled... and my parents would get pissed at ME if they found out... they didn't get mad at the school and threaten to sue them. Our society is out of control.. and the kids are where we see it most.

Vance,

Just my perspective, because it sounds like you are angry at some republicans.. and I don't disagree...

But the two party system is broke and they are using the American public like a bunch of lemmings.

The liberals want to tax everyone to death and increase entitlement spending ... the end result will be economic collapse as they continue to spend us into a death spiral (in fact it is already well under way).

The republicans want to extend tax breaks to the wealthy corporations, bail outs, and wage war... the end result is the same .. economic collapse as we borrow until all hell breaks loose.

So, same destination.. just different routes. The only true solution is a balanced budget that begins to chip away at our debt.. and to get there some tough decisions have to be made... (e.g. US Postal Service, etc.)

The politicians and the media keep all the lemmings in our country fighting with one another on topics like Gay Marriage while they go off and laugh behind out backs as they pillage our country. Example: Obamacare gets shoved down our throats.. meanwhile they are all trying to pass an exception for the congress and senate so they don't have to participate... is that fair? Not even close to "for the people, by the people"

And if things don't change, when bad economic turmoil comes, people's perspectives on guns will change ... even on the left. That is also part of our issue today, the economy isn't great and people lose hope which equals crazy desperate people. And if that day comes, the only currency will be (a) food, (b) medicine, and (c) guns. Money won't be worth the paper it is printed on.

Having been through natural disasters where police and government can't help you... and watching a looter scumbag hold a knife to my pregnant wife's stomach... I told myself never again. Thankfully my brother in law is a FBI agent who was in my home after the hurricane. And he made it painfully clear that you have to protect yourself.... police are only there to (a) prevent crimes and (b) solve the ones that have already occurred. I was not anti-gun, but I didn't feel the need to own one with little ones in the house... but after that day I found out the hard way that with little ones in the house, I was almost obligated to own one.

Nailed it again. I cosign your opinion.

 

[flamingrey]

Flaming, I think you are jumping on the wrong person. I am involved in the 2nd amendment debate via politics on a daily level. I support the 2nd amendment...

The only point I was trying to make is (a) you can have gun control until you (b) close the border.

If there is demand, people will create supply. As laws reduce supply, and there is still demand, prices go up. Then people risk importing them... just like Cocaine, etc.

But as much of a 2nd amendment supporter as I am, I do support some level of gun laws... specifically around putting adults who allow children to get guns and kill themselves or others. And mentally challenged people... outside that, I feel every responsible adult who wants to be armed, should.

If you want to get into facts... feel free to ask me and I will give you as much as you can handle.

That's fine and dandy to be involved in the debate, but if you're making the kind of arguments that you did in the previous page using vague terms like "overall crime" is down to support your argument or use "banning guns" as a basis to argue against, then the only people you're convincing are people that already agree with you or people that don't know any better.

If you have the "facts", bring 'em. But that's your own prerogative. I may agree with them or I may not. End of the day, it makes little difference to me. I take issue with weak arguments being portrayed as fact.

As for your 2 following posts, I absolutely agree (minus the healthcare stuff). HOWEVER, to add to the point you made about society changing, along with that (d)evolving society, the laws must change. You can't argue that on one hand the world is changing, but on the other we can continue to live under the same rules of the past that are foreign (literally and figuratively) to the world now. Laws have to evolve along with society.