OT: Politics Thread - Do Not Open Unless You Want to Argue

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I dont think "Grandmas medical care" should be touched. Nor do I believe our defense should be hindered. However the pension plans and benefits of government officials and state workers needs to be drastically cut. And as far as welfare only taking up a portion, it still is a waste the way it is run. Every state should have it mandatory to pass a drug test to be on any state aid (Welfare, Food Stamps, anything and everything).

The benefits that retirees paid into their whole life should not be touched. If anything is going to be changed then it should be for the younger generation today. Those that lived their lives paying into something they depend on should have it.

Drug tests ain't cheap Jeff. Whether we the taxpayers pay for those or for the social benefits, we're still paying.

I agree that changes need to be made, but I don't think drug tests are the answer.

 

[SLY]

Drug tests ain't cheap Jeff. Whether we the taxpayers pay for those or for the social benefits, we're still paying.

I agree that changes need to be made, but I don't think drug tests are the answer.

As a person who lives in the city, I think it is. There are many low lifes living off of state aid whom are just spending the little bit of money they get on illegal substances. Some of them being mothers of many children who just r*pe the sytem for the credits they receive on procreating.

And also I would make the cost go on the person applying for aid. Why should tax payers pay for someone to qualify and receive aid? I dont care if they have no income, they need to find a way. And drug tests arent that expensive. And if they fail, they should not be allowed to apply again for a certain amount of time.

 

[awaz]

The problem with some of the items that are considered protecting people from themselves, like seatbelts, is that there is a greater consideration. If some dumbass kills himself because he's not wearing a seatbelt, there's a good chance we all pay a portion of that, because we have to pay for ambulances, coroners, paramedics, etc., not to mention the lost productivity and wasted fuel from people who are now stuck in traffic while they scrape some guy's brains off the pavement and the mental scarring that happens to the other cars and people involved in these accidents.

Same thing with smoking. People argue it's their health and their choice, but we all subsidize the cost of their healthcare if they get cancer or something similar.

Just a couple examples, but my point is that there're very few activities that one person can do that doesn't directly impact someone else in some way, which is why those regulations exist.

hm. there's me not thinking big picture. however, i will defend myself a little bit. without having any numbers what-so-ever, my guess is that would still save money for the government, just not nearly as much as i had thought i suppose.

i'm not a big political arguer. i have my thoughts, and am very interested in politics, but i'm very open to being told why my ideas wont work haha

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I've just determined that I will pencil you all in as write-in candidates for the next election just for the fact that we've had zero name-calling in 64 posts.

 

[SLY]

Awaz, there is still way too much money wasted on marketing these programs you speak of. So, you aren't completely wrong.

 

[awaz]

As a person who lives in the city, I think it is. There are many low lifes living off of state aid whom are just spending the little bit of money they get on illegal substances. Some of them being mothers of many children who just r*pe the sytem for the credits they receive on procreating.

And also I would make the cost go on the person applying for aid. Why should tax payers pay for someone to qualify and receive aid? I dont care if they have no income, they need to find a way. And drug tests arent that expensive. And if they fail, they should not be allowed to apply again for a certain amount of time.

agree with that 100%, only problem is the people applying for aid are well, applying for aid. they dont have the ability to pay for stuff

 

[SLY]

agree with that 100%, only problem is the people applying for aid are well, applying for aid. they dont have the ability to pay for stuff

Then they need to find a way... Nothing in life should be free. They either pay themselves, or they can opt for volunteer work in the county they live to receive the drug test for free (tax payers $).

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

As a person who lives in the city, I think it is. There are many low lifes living off of state aid whom are just spending the little bit of money they get on illegal substances. Some of them being mothers of many children who just r*pe the sytem for the credits they receive on procreating.

And also I would make the cost go on the person applying for aid. Why should tax payers pay for someone to qualify and receive aid? I dont care if they have no income, they need to find a way. And drug tests arent that expensive. And if they fail, they should not be allowed to apply again for a certain amount of time.

There's broader social issues at work though.

If a person fails that drug test and doesn't get their benefits, what do they do then? Rob someone to get money for a place to live? Freeze to death?

And when I say drug tests aren't cheap, I'm talking the types of drug tests that would actually hold up in a court of law. I.e., those conducted by a proper lab company, not the cheap types that people can buy at a drugstore.

Otherwise, the government opens themselves up to lawsuits by people who say that their drug test returned a false positive and that they should have received their benefits. Then there's court costs, defense fees, etc.

I don't want you to think I'm completely discarding your point of view, because my point is only, there's no silver bullet to fix these types of things because there's always a domino effect. (and I will admit to enjoying playing devil's advocate sometimes )

That's my issue is that the politicians never consider the downstream impact of their changes, and things often end up even worse than they were to start with.

 

[li0lsh]

the debt ceiling is going to be raised at the last minute. if it doesn't everyone will default on their houses and we are all completely fucked as the dollar plummets and the stock market plummets.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

the debt ceiling is going to be raised at the last minute. if it doesn't everyone will default on their houses and we are all completely fucked as the dollar plummets and the stock market plumets.

Where are you getting this?

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Then they need to find a way... Nothing in life should be free. They either pay themselves, or they can opt for volunteer work in the county they live to receive the drug test for free (tax payers $).

Not to nitpick, but that's not exactly "volunteering" then

 

[li0lsh]

btw we have a politics forum--this should be moved there

 

[li0lsh]

Where are you getting this?

uh--the fact that millions of people won't be paid?

 

[jerseyjigroe]

btw we have a politics forum--this should be moved there

I don't think it needs to be moved. There is a disclaimer at the top. Plus, every one has been civil in discussing this.

 

[SLY]

There's broader social issues at work though.

If a person fails that drug test and doesn't get their benefits, what do they do then? Rob someone to get money for a place to live? Freeze to death?

And when I say drug tests aren't cheap, I'm talking the types of drug tests that would actually hold up in a court of law. I.e., those conducted by a proper lab company, not the cheap types that people can buy at a drugstore.

Otherwise, the government opens themselves up to lawsuits by people who say that their drug test returned a false positive and that they should have received their benefits. Then there's court costs, defense fees, etc.

I don't want you to think I'm completely discarding your point of view, because my point is only, there's no silver bullet to fix these types of things because there's always a domino effect. (and I will admit to enjoying playing devil's advocate sometimes )

That's my issue is that the politicians never consider the downstream impact of their changes, and things often end up even worse than they were to start with.

I understand what you are saying... But there needs to be strict guidelines to receiving taxpayer's aid. I haven't put enough thought into it to have a concrete system, but there are way too many loopholes and easy outs (and ins) for people seeking aid. It should not be easy, and it should not be depended upon.

If a person were to fail, then oh well. They go rob someone, they go to jail (which is another system that needs to dissected, all those people should be doing something to earn the tax money paying for them to live, and if they dont do so than they should just rot somewhere), and any person with a brain can avoid freezing to death. Point made is that people that are hooked on drugs should not be receiving aid.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

uh--the fact that millions of people won't be paid?

Most people will continue to get paid.

 

[SLY]

Not to nitpick, but that's not exactly "volunteering" then

I meant to say community service... you little...

 

[awaz]

I understand what you are saying... But there needs to be strict guidelines to receiving taxpayer's aid. I haven't put enough thought into it to have a concrete system, but there are way too many loopholes and easy outs (and ins) for people seeking aid. It should not be easy, and it should not be depended upon.

If a person were to fail, then oh well. They go rob someone, they go to jail (which is another system that needs to dissected, all those people should be doing something to earn the tax money paying for them to live, and if they dont do so than they should just rot somewhere), and any person with a brain can avoid freezing to death. Point made is that people that are hooked on drugs should not be receiving aid.

i have the same feeling towards people need to earn the help some way.. or at least show that they are deserving of it and show they are trying to get off of it

i think what sabresfan is saying is people wont 'just rot' somewhere. they will steal and commit other crimes to try to survive. then you get into executing people that are useless to society and thats not a moral path anyone (or at least no where near the majority) is willing to go down

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I understand what you are saying... But there needs to be strict guidelines to receiving taxpayer's aid. I haven't put enough thought into it to have a concrete system, but there are way too many loopholes and easy outs (and ins) for people seeking aid. It should not be easy, and it should not be depended upon.

If a person were to fail, then oh well. They go rob someone, they go to jail (which is another system that needs to dissected, all those people should be doing something to earn the tax money paying for them to live, and if they dont do so than they should just rot somewhere), and any person with a brain can avoid freezing to death. Point made is that people that are hooked on drugs should not be receiving aid.

Honestly not trying to seem like I'm piling on, because I appreciate your point and agree that there are changes that need to be made here. I think we agree on the principle of reform being needed, just not the method for implementing.

Because in this type of scenario 1) we assume they get caught for robbing the person (don't know statistics, but possibly a big "if") and 2) there are then court costs associated with prosecuting them, not to mention the jail costs that you cite. Not to mention that people will then complain about the high crime rate, so we have to hire more police, which again costs money.

Again, just trying to stress the fact that there's always a downstream impact and that REAL changes are needed, not just these one-off moves that they make constantly.

 

[jerseyjigroe]

Failure to raise debt ceiling doesn't mean the US will default on debt.

The U.S. Treasury will not default - Fundmastery Blog - MarketWatch