OT: NBA Finals

[NinerSickness]

...So random sub-topic: who had the better supporting cast?

MJ with Scottie, Rodman & an excellent bench?

Or Lebron with Wade, Bosh and a rest of the team that's pretty mediocre (if not bad?).

Or better yet...

Wade VS Pippen. Who's better?
Bosh VS Rodman. Who's better?

 

[Kinzu]

...So random sub-topic: who had the better supporting cast?

MJ with Scottie, Rodman & an excellent bench?

Or Lebron with Wade, Bosh and a rest of the team that's pretty mediocre (if not bad?).

Or better yet...

Wade VS Pippen. Who's better?
Bosh VS Rodman. Who's better?

Jordan had a better bench, but I'd probably go Wade and Bosh over Pippen and Rodman. That's based on individual talent though. The Bulls were a much better team especially when they only lost 10 games for a season.

Now for an entire off-season of listening to analysis and fans try to compare Lebron to Jordan as the GOAT. It's not even close enough for conversation yet, but Jordan's greatness is getting to be 20 years old so I think everyone has just forgotten how great he really was.

It's like comparing Montana to Young really. Young was great but Montana had a better career, and Montana's star shined a lot brighter more times when the spotlight was on him. Greatness does not show on a stat sheet.

 

[numone9er]

I think Jordan had a better over all supporting cast, but it's hard to say who is better between Scottie and Wade. Wade was one of my favorite players for a long time, but i would give the edge to Wade. Bosh is just a different player than Rodman. Obviously Bosh is capable of being a better scores, but Rodman's Defense and rebounding were much better IMO.

 

[numone9er]

Jordan had a better bench, but I'd probably go Wade and Bosh over Pippen and Rodman. That's based on individual talent though. The Bulls were a much better team especially when they only lost 10 games for a season.

Now for an entire off-season of listening to analysis and fans try to compare Lebron to Jordan as the GOAT. It's not even close enough for conversation yet, but Jordan's greatness is getting to be 20 years old so I think everyone has just forgotten how great he really was.

It's like comparing Montana to Young really. Young was great but Montana had a better career, and Montana's star shined a lot brighter more times when the spotlight was on him. Greatness does not show on a stat sheet.

Repped for that. When Jordan got that look in his eye you did not want to fuck with him. There is no questioning Lebron's talent, but he's not even close yet.

 

[Kinzu]

Shane Battier should have been the Finals MVP. It was his defense and 3 pointer that easily won them 2 games in this series. Lebron was great and will get the credit, but the Heat don't win this series without Battier stepping up and maybe playing the best series of his career.

Harden did not show up all series. Battier did and to me that was the difference maker. The star players mostly cancelled each other out.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

Shane Battier should have been the Finals MVP. It was his defense and 3 pointer that easily won them 2 games in this series. Lebron was great and will get the credit, but the Heat don't win this series without Battier stepping up and maybe playing the best series of his career.

Harden did not show up all series. Battier did and to me that was the difference maker. The star players mostly cancelled each other out.

IMO a lot of Battier's, as well as the other 3 point shooters, success was because of Lebron's low post play and the fact that he had to constantly be double teamed in the post. If you give any of those guys that much time to shoot the wide open 3 they are going to make a lot of those shots.

 

[NinerSickness]

Repped for that. When Jordan got that look in his eye you did not want to fuck with him. There is no questioning Lebron's talent, but he's not even close yet.

Just for the record, in no way was I trying to compare or contrast MJ & LJ. Just asking about the other players on their respective teams.

I honestly think MJ's Rodman teams (the 11 players not named Michael Jordan) were better than the 11 players on the Heat not named Lebron James.

...NBA rosters have 12 players right?

 

[Yoshi]

Juwaun Howard got his ring too. Is he the only one of the Fab Five to do it?

I have to be honest, when he came in for James at the end I was thinking, "Hey, I recognize that guy." and when they said it was Howard, I said, "Holy shit, he is still playing??"

18 years in the league. It's like finding a living T Rex in our era.

 

[abaskin18]

Shane Battier should have been the Finals MVP. It was his defense and 3 pointer that easily won them 2 games in this series. Lebron was great and will get the credit, but the Heat don't win this series without Battier stepping up and maybe playing the best series of his career.

Harden did not show up all series. Battier did and to me that was the difference maker. The star players mostly cancelled each other out.

I have to respectfully disagree. If they gave an award out for MVRP then he has a great case. He was absolutely a difference maker and a major one, arguably the 5th most valuable player on the floor over the series. Dude made plays on top of open 3s and terrific D as always, but no. His series reminds me of Ariza's last finals with the Lakers. Tremendously important and they don't win without him, but no.

One could argue the MVP for Lebron based solely on the defensive attention he was given and how that opened things up for others. Add in what he did with and without the ball in the face of that attention, and at the other end of the floor and there really isn't a case for anyone else, imo.

You did hit the nail on the head with Harden. One of my favorite guys in the league he has to be the MDP (most disappointing player), and it's only more glaring when compared to the contributions of Battier all series and, in games 4 & 5, Chalmers.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Kinzu.......I hate to say it, but you are like the prototype Lebron hater. You give credit anywhere else possible, sell him short, overstate his teammates' ability, blame the refs, etc.

re: Bulls vs. Heat.....leave aside Jordan vs. Lebron, two all-time greats who do different things for their team. Pippen and Rodman are both hall-of-famers, and past that among the best ever at their particular roles. Phil Jackson is a hall-of-famer and brought them a system that dominated the league for years, maximizing the talents of the players they had. The GM Krause understood exactly what players they needed and brought them in consistently. The Bulls were perfect team for years and basically 6 straight titles with Jordan onboard won't be matched anytime soon.

 

[Kinzu]

I just see him for what he is right now. He is a physical freak of an athlete that has gotten by for years on just that. I think he is one of the top defenders and has great court vision on his passing, but that's about where my praise ends. I think he is still a very incomplete offensive player. He relies very heavily on his physical talents when it comes to scoring. That's fine for now because he is in the prime of his career, but if he wants to be an all time great he needs to develop more than just dropping the shoulder and driving to the hoop and taking the contact. That style will not work for him as he ages. He will get slower and the younger faster guys will start getting in front of him. He needs to develop a post game first and foremost, and I did give him credit for doing such. He took Harden down low and abused the matchup just like he should have done Jason Kidd last year. He needs to keep working on it because it makes him such a dangerous player now while giving him a skill set to last into the twilight of his career. It would be nice if he improved as a shooter, but it's rare to see guys suddenly become shooters at this point. I don't mean as a catch and shoot type of guy either. I'd like to see Lebron more capable of stop and shooting off his dribble.

I see Lebron the way I saw Brock Lesner in the UFC. Bigger, stronger, faster, and skilled enough to dominate his competition, but what happened to Brock? His competition got bigger, stronger, and faster. When that happened the flaws in his game really started to show. The NBA is not about to see a sudden influx of 6"9 250lb athletic freaks so Lebron is safe from that, but as he ages the physical advantage will dwindle and it will become more and more about his talent and skill set. I think Jordan won his last title at what 36? He was far from the drive to the rim and dunk it Jordan for 40+ a game by that point of his career, but he was still putting up 40 a game anytime he wanted to do it because he became a much more complete player.

So my real issue with Lebron is this conception of his greatness. I still don't think he is worthy of his own hype. The guy took 9 years to realize he should probably work on his post game. You compare that to Magic Johnson who never played Center and yet with Kareerm hurt took on the position and dropped 42 points with 15 boards and 7 assist as a rookie in the NBA Finals. Yeah Magic as a rookie had a better all around game than King James does 9 years into the league. James also plays in an era where it's harder to play defense. It's things like this that make me shake my head when I hear people talk of him as maybe the best ever to play the game... no...no he his not. Lebron is talented, but he has a ways to go to be greatest that ever played the game.

 

[abaskin18]

I just see him for what he is right now. He is a physical freak of an athlete that has gotten by for years on just that. I think he is one of the top defenders and has great court vision on his passing, but that's about where my praise ends. I think he is still a very incomplete offensive player. He relies very heavily on his physical talents when it comes to scoring. That's fine for now because he is in the prime of his career, but if he wants to be an all time great he needs to develop more than just dropping the shoulder and driving to the hoop and taking the contact. That style will not work for him as he ages. He will get slower and the younger faster guys will start getting in front of him. He needs to develop a post game first and foremost, and I did give him credit for doing such. He took Harden down low and abused the matchup just like he should have done Jason Kidd last year. He needs to keep working on it because it makes him such a dangerous player now while giving him a skill set to last into the twilight of his career. It would be nice if he improved as a shooter, but it's rare to see guys suddenly become shooters at this point. I don't mean as a catch and shoot type of guy either. I'd like to see Lebron more capable of stop and shooting off his dribble.

I see Lebron the way I saw Brock Lesner in the UFC. Bigger, stronger, faster, and skilled enough to dominate his competition, but what happened to Brock? His competition got bigger, stronger, and faster. When that happened the flaws in his game really started to show. The NBA is not about to see a sudden influx of 6"9 250lb athletic freaks so Lebron is safe from that, but as he ages the physical advantage will dwindle and it will become more and more about his talent and skill set. I think Jordan won his last title at what 36? He was far from the drive to the rim and dunk it Jordan for 40+ a game by that point of his career, but he was still putting up 40 a game anytime he wanted to do it because he became a much more complete player.

So my real issue with Lebron is this conception of his greatness. I still don't think he is worthy of his own hype. The guy took 9 years to realize he should probably work on his post game. You compare that to Magic Johnson who never played Center and yet with Kareerm hurt took on the position and dropped 42 points with 15 boards and 7 assist as a rookie in the NBA Finals. Yeah Magic as a rookie had a better all around game than King James does 9 years into the league. James also plays in an era where it's harder to play defense. It's things like this that make me shake my head when I hear people talk of him as maybe the best ever to play the game... no...no he his not. Lebron is talented, but he has a ways to go to be greatest that ever played the game.

I retract my respect from my previous post respectfully disagreeing. Sorry, man.

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

.

Or better yet...

Wade VS Pippen. Who's better?
Bosh VS Rodman. Who's better?

Probably Pippen with the slight edge. This one is close though. Wade has fallen off a little bit as of late. So if wade 4 yrs ago or so, i'd say its close to a coin flip.

Bosh, easily.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Lebron stats:

2006 .476% FG 6.7 REB 6.0 AST
2007 .484% FG 7.9 REB 7.2 AST
2008 .489% FG 7.6 REB 7.2 AST
2009 .503% FG 7.3 REB 8.6 AST
2010 .510% FG 7.5 REB 7.0 AST
2011 .531% FG 7.9 REB 6.2 AST

So basically he's getting better every year, still into his 9th season. More efficient, though less assists once he got to Miami because he wasn't handling the ball 100% of the time. MJ (neither one, I should say) didn't have too many seasons better than Lebron's this year. Dismiss it all because of athleticism or whatever, you're still coming off ridiculously negative and bitter about him.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Oh, and this playoffs: 30.3 ppg on 50% shooting, 9.7 REB, 5.6 AST. What kind of crazy standards you'd have to have to say he's falling short in any imaginable way.

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

Were they making up after an arguement or something?

I think the ref was just telling him to stay off the court. spoelstra just though it was going to be a high five imo

 

[threelittleturds]

...So random sub-topic: who had the better supporting cast?

MJ with Scottie, Rodman & an excellent bench?

Or Lebron with Wade, Bosh and a rest of the team that's pretty mediocre (if not bad?).

Or better yet...

Wade VS Pippen. Who's better?
Bosh VS Rodman. Who's better?

The first 3-peat team I think was pretty much just carried by the starters. Jordan, Pippen, and Grant. Just like the Heat with James, Wade, Bosh. Although the Bulls did have a better starting group and 6th man with BJ Armstrong coming off the bench and getting 8.8 ppg compared to Paxon's 8.7 ppg.

The second 3-peat team easily had the better bench with Kukoc coming in as the 6th man, and I think he even won that best 6th man award once or twice in that stretch. Plus Steve Kerr draining all those 3 pointers off the bench too. Although, if you consider that Rodman was one of the worst offensive players in the league, it makes sense that they needed a guy like Kukoc coming off the bench to fill that void.

 

[Kinzu]

Where does title put LeBron James among NBA?s greatest? - Chicago Sun-Times

I full support and agree with this article. Magic says what I have been trying to say best though.

“Before, my biggest knock on LeBron was he was just playing off his God-gifted talent,” Johnson said during a conference call before Game 5. “He was just the best athlete. But he didn’t play with his head to match that. Now he’s playing with his talent and with his head, and wow, watch out. This guy is going to set the league on fire for a long time. ... I know there was an earlier question about how dominant has his performance been. We look to see this from LeBron for years and years to come.”

If he stays hungry now after finally winning his title and keeps improving on his game then yeah... watch out.

 

[TheNinerMind]

Couldn't be more thrilled with this series. The way Clay Bennett lied and cheated the city of Seattle and the way he put on a donkey turd team while in the city in order to draft Durant and Westbrook is disgusting. Fuck the Thunder.

 

[drekeeper]

...So random sub-topic: who had the better supporting cast?

MJ with Scottie, Rodman & an excellent bench?

Or Lebron with Wade, Bosh and a rest of the team that's pretty mediocre (if not bad?).

Or better yet...

Wade VS Pippen. Who's better?
Bosh VS Rodman. Who's better?

Rodman and Pippen win this conversation and its not even close. Both Rodman and Pippen were standouts on the defensive side of the ball, something neither Wade or Bosh come close to, especially Bosh. Rodman was more than a beast on the boards and at 6'8 220, you could stick him on anyone in the paint with his athleticism and he was causing problems. Pippen, what really needs to be said. Where he lacked on consistency in the shooting department, he made up for with all around game running the point, being a premier defender, but he was still good for 18-21 a game. Bosh and Wade are 1 dimensional offensive players who flash the occasional hint of defense every blue moon.