OT: Monta Ellis to the Bucks for Andrew Bogut

[Mays-Fan]

Milwaukee Bucks trade Andrew Bogut, Stephen Jackson to Golden State Warriors for Monta Ellis - ESPN

MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Bucks traded Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson to the Golden State Warriors on Tuesday night for a three-player package headed by high-scoring guard Monta Ellis.

The Bucks also receive forward Ekpe Udoh and center Kwame Brown in the deal.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'm a Bucks fan from way back. What are they getting in Ellis / Udoh / Brown?

 

[Heathbar012]

Milwaukee Bucks trade Andrew Bogut, Stephen Jackson to Golden State Warriors for Monta Ellis - ESPN

MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Bucks traded Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson to the Golden State Warriors on Tuesday night for a three-player package headed by high-scoring guard Monta Ellis.

The Bucks also receive forward Ekpe Udoh and center Kwame Brown in the deal.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'm a Bucks fan from way back. What are they getting in Ellis / Udoh / Brown?

Ellis: an older, wiser, right-handed version of Brandon Jennings

Udoh: great help-side defender with an emerging offensive game inside of 12 feet; not tall or strong enough to be a good starting center, but could be an above average 4 in the league someday (downside: he is 25; upside: he works hard)

Brown: expiring contract

 

[gp956]

I'm going to guess that Bob Fitzgerald thought this was a great trade for the Warriors.

 

[tzill]

Milwaukee Bucks trade Andrew Bogut, Stephen Jackson to Golden State Warriors for Monta Ellis - ESPN

MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Bucks traded Andrew Bogut and Stephen Jackson to the Golden State Warriors on Tuesday night for a three-player package headed by high-scoring guard Monta Ellis.

The Bucks also receive forward Ekpe Udoh and center Kwame Brown in the deal.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I'm a Bucks fan from way back. What are they getting in Ellis / Udoh / Brown?

You are inheriting the Warriors problem: an undersized backcourt.

 

[tzill]

I'm going to guess that Bob Fitzgerald thought this was a great trade for the Warriors.

Rep.


I think this actually will end up being a good trade for the W's. I think Bogut will get healthy and return to top 5 center form.

It's a gamble, but I think it's a good one. The roster is finally balanced. I'd have traded Lee instead of Udoh, but the W's are enamored with Lee.

 

[Heathbar012]

Rep.


I think this actually will end up being a good trade for the W's. I think Bogut will get healthy and return to top 5 center form.

It's a gamble, but I think it's a good one. The roster is finally balanced. I'd have traded Lee instead of Udoh, but the W's are enamored with Lee.

That would've been nice. Do you think the Bucks would take on that contract even after unloading Jack's (ie. would the Ws have to take on Gooden?)?

 

[msgkings322]

Rep.


I think this actually will end up being a good trade for the W's. I think Bogut will get healthy and return to top 5 center form.

It's a gamble, but I think it's a good one. The roster is finally balanced. I'd have traded Lee instead of Udoh, but the W's are enamored with Lee.

Agreed. Teams in the middle (not totally rebuilding, not already contending) have to take gambles to move up to the top tier. This is a classic gamble, it could be awesome or totally suck. But they couldn't stand pat.

If Bogut gets healthy, clear W's win. And I think keeping Lee was the right move. Udoh will never be a 20-10 guy like Lee. His defense is better but a healthy Bogut solves that problem. And heck Jackson might be the x-factor here.

 

[Mays-Fan]

That would've been nice. Do you think the Bucks would take on that contract even after unloading Jack's (ie. would the Ws have to take on Gooden?)?

I looked at the numbers, at least for this year, and that's how they made them work.

Bogut $12 mill + Jax $9.3 mill = $21.3 mill

Ellis $11 mill + Brown $6.75 Mill + Udoh $ 3.3 mill = $21 mill

_avi_ Lee (hat tip to Cam from the W's board) makes $11.6 mill. I don't know how close they had to get, so maybe they couldn't make that work.

As a Bucks fan, I think I'm happy, certainly for this year. We got three guys who can play for two that weren't going to. Jax is a cancer, but I suspect I don't have to tell you all that. I know Ellis and Jennings overlap, but they both have some SG in them too. If they both average 32 mins, that means they are only on the court together for 16 mins. Bucks have Mbah A Moute to defend a big SG (LBJ, Kobe, etc) if needed. And Udoh looks like he has some upside, and can defend the rim. Bucks needed another body inside if they were going to make a run at the playoffs.

Reps all around. Many thanks.

 

[CameronFrye]

Rep.


I think this actually will end up being a good trade for the W's. I think Bogut will get healthy and return to top 5 center form.

It's a gamble, but I think it's a good one. The roster is finally balanced. I'd have traded Lee instead of Udoh, but the W's are enamored with Lee.

We totally agree.

Sincerely,

Kevin Love
Marc Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Dwight Howard
Al Jefferson
Marcin Gortat
Roy Hibbert
LaMarcus Aldridge
Chris Bosh
Greg Monroe
Brook Lopez
Dearcus Cousins
Nene

 

[Heathbar012]

We totally agree.

Sincerely,

Kevin Love
Marc Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Dwight Howard
Al Jefferson
Marcin Gortat
Roy Hibbert
LaMarcus Aldridge
Chris Bosh
Greg Monroe
Brook Lopez
Dearcus Cousins
Nene

Noted and funny. However, Bosh, Aldridge and Love are not centers, and when healthy, Bogut is better than Monroe and arguably as good or better than Gortat, Hibbert and Lopez (possibly Jefferson, Cousins and Nene [who would all rather be 4s], too, when they're feeling extra lazy). EDIT: Especially in terms of his skill set in connection with the Warriors' needs.

As far as pure centers go, Bogut will be in the discussion for Top 5. He certainly won't get there without playing 75% of games for the next few seasons, but he isn't quite as far off as you have made him out to be.

 

[CameronFrye]

Noted and funny. However, Bosh, Aldridge and Love are not centers, and when healthy, Bogut is better than Monroe and arguably as good or better than Gortat, Hibbert and Lopez (possibly Jefferson, Cousins and Nene [who would all rather be 4s], too, when they're feeling extra lazy). EDIT: Especially in terms of his skill set in connection with the Warriors' needs.

As far as pure centers go, Bogut will be in the discussion for Top 5. He certainly won't get there without playing 75% of games for the next few seasons, but he isn't quite as far off as you have made him out to be.

I know you know I was joking, but I was trying to make a point.

There is ZERO chance he's bette than Gortat or Jefferson. Hibbert is younger than Bogut and already as good. Hibbert is still improving and will be better very soon if he isn't already better. Monroe is a curious case because he's not a prototypical center. He is a lot like Laimbeer in that he is a great passer and rebounder with a pretty solid outside shot. So he doesn't clog up the middle like most traditional centers. But athletically speaking, Monroe is already better than Bogut.

I have never been fond of Nene, so I will not defend that inclusion except to say that he changes the game defensively when he is in there. He is too reckless and commits too many fouls for my liking, but he makes all players think before entering the lane when he's there.

As for Lopez, Brook can outscore Bogut with his eyes shut. Bogut may have the edge defensively, but it's not by such a wide margin that it compensates for Lopez's offensive talents. Brook Lopez will be a 20 point-per-game guy in his next full season and could easily pull down 8 boards if he puts any work in.

Bottom line is that Bogut is a step up from what the Warriors had, but he is not anywhere near being a Top 5 center now and likely never will be. Top 10 I will give you, but not Top 5.

 

[Heathbar012]

I know you know I was joking, but I was trying to make a point.

There is ZERO chance he's bette than Gortat or Jefferson. Hibbert is younger than Bogut and already as good. Hibbert is still improving and will be better very soon if he isn't already better. Monroe is a curious case because he's not a prototypical center. He is a lot like Laimbeer in that he is a great passer and rebounder with a pretty solid outside shot. So he doesn't clog up the middle like most traditional centers. But athletically speaking, Monroe is already better than Bogut.

I have never been fond of Nene, so I will not defend that inclusion except to say that he changes the game defensively when he is in there. He is too reckless and commits too many fouls for my liking, but he makes all players think before entering the lane when he's there.

As for Lopez, Brook can outscore Bogut with his eyes shut. Bogut may have the edge defensively, but it's not by such a wide margin that it compensates for Lopez's offensive talents. Brook Lopez will be a 20 point-per-game guy in his next full season and could easily pull down 8 boards if he puts any work in.

Bottom line is that Bogut is a step up from what the Warriors had, but he is not anywhere near being a Top 5 center now and likely never will be. Top 10 I will give you, but not Top 5.

He certainly can't be Top 5 or Top 10 until he gets on the court (which will be next year and for how long we have no idea), but, outside of DH, Bynum and Gasol none of those centers that are "better" than Bogut would make the current Warriors' roster better than it is.

Had there been another trade to unload Lee, that assessment would completely change. His lack of defense makes Lopez, Cousins, Monroe and Jefferson almost worthless (plus, I don't think any of those teams wanted Monta, Udoh and Brown's expiring). A tandem of Avi and any of those guys would score 40 and give up 50 most nights. I like Bogut's defensive abilities more than Gortat's and Andrew's back-to-the-basket moves are better than Hibbert"s. Of course, Hibbert is slightly younger and Bogut, likely, won't improve at the rate that Roy has (which is why the Pacers wouldn't move him for the package that got The Big Aussie [nickname needed immediately]).

Due to Bogut's injuries, you could argue that the Dubs should've pushed for a draft pick, but they're likely getting that by losing 2/3s of the remaining games. This was the best deal available for a team that the entire league knew needed to make a deal. Sadly, it will only be worth it if the Warriors play poorly enough to get their first rounder.

 

[tzill]

I looked at the numbers, at least for this year, and that's how they made them work.

Bogut $12 mill + Jax $9.3 mill = $21.3 mill

Ellis $11 mill + Brown $6.75 Mill + Udoh $ 3.3 mill = $21 mill

_avi_ Lee (hat tip to Cam from the W's board) makes $11.6 mill. I don't know how close they had to get, so maybe they couldn't make that work.

As a Bucks fan, I think I'm happy, certainly for this year. We got three guys who can play for two that weren't going to. Jax is a cancer, but I suspect I don't have to tell you all that. I know Ellis and Jennings overlap, but they both have some SG in them too. If they both average 32 mins, that means they are only on the court together for 16 mins. Bucks have Mbah A Moute to defend a big SG (LBJ, Kobe, etc) if needed. And Udoh looks like he has some upside, and can defend the rim. Bucks needed another body inside if they were going to make a run at the playoffs.

Reps all around. Many thanks.

As I said, the Bucks have now inherited the W's eternal problem.

 

[tzill]

We totally agree.

Sincerely,

Kevin Love
Marc Gasol
Andrew Bynum
Dwight Howard
Al Jefferson
Marcin Gortat
Roy Hibbert
LaMarcus Aldridge
Chris Bosh
Greg Monroe
Brook Lopez
Dearcus Cousins
Nene

When healthy, there are NOT 5 centers better than Bogut in the NBA. Howard, Jefferson and Bynum...that's about it.

Love -- not a center
M Gasol -- middle of the pack at best
Gortat -- pretty good; there's an argument here but he's not clearly better
Hibbert -- see M Gasol
Aldridge -- see Love
Bosh -- see Aldridge
Monroe -- another good argument, but not clearly better than a healthy Bogut
Lopez -- in the conversation; not clearly better
DMC -- top 10, but a cut below
Nene -- best years behind him, only mid pack now.

So, as I said, there's Howard, Jefferson, and Bynum. After that, you can throw a blanket over a healthy Bogut, Gortat, Monroe, Lopez.

 

[tzill]

I know you know I was joking, but I was trying to make a point.

There is ZERO chance he's bette than Gortat or Jefferson. Hibbert is younger than Bogut and already as good. Hibbert is still improving and will be better very soon if he isn't already better. Monroe is a curious case because he's not a prototypical center. He is a lot like Laimbeer in that he is a great passer and rebounder with a pretty solid outside shot. So he doesn't clog up the middle like most traditional centers. But athletically speaking, Monroe is already better than Bogut.

I have never been fond of Nene, so I will not defend that inclusion except to say that he changes the game defensively when he is in there. He is too reckless and commits too many fouls for my liking, but he makes all players think before entering the lane when he's there.

As for Lopez, Brook can outscore Bogut with his eyes shut. Bogut may have the edge defensively, but it's not by such a wide margin that it compensates for Lopez's offensive talents. Brook Lopez will be a 20 point-per-game guy in his next full season and could easily pull down 8 boards if he puts any work in.

Bottom line is that Bogut is a step up from what the Warriors had, but he is not anywhere near being a Top 5 center now and likely never will be. Top 10 I will give you, but not Top 5.

All of the bolded above I disagree with. Let's hope Andrew gets healthy and we can see who's right.

 

[tzill]

He certainly can't be Top 5 or Top 10 until he gets on the court (which will be next year and for how long we have no idea), but, outside of DH, Bynum and Gasol none of those centers that are "better" than Bogut would make the current Warriors' roster better than it is.

Had there been another trade to unload Lee, that assessment would completely change. His lack of defense makes Lopez, Cousins, Monroe and Jefferson almost worthless (plus, I don't think any of those teams wanted Monta, Udoh and Brown's expiring). A tandem of Avi and any of those guys would score 40 and give up 50 most nights. I like Bogut's defensive abilities more than Gortat's and Andrew's back-to-the-basket moves are better than Hibbert"s. Of course, Hibbert is slightly younger and Bogut, likely, won't improve at the rate that Roy has (which is why the Pacers wouldn't move him for the package that got The Big Aussie [nickname needed immediately]).

Due to Bogut's injuries, you could argue that the Dubs should've pushed for a draft pick, but they're likely getting that by losing 2/3s of the remaining games. This was the best deal available for a team that the entire league knew needed to make a deal. Sadly, it will only be worth it if the Warriors play poorly enough to get their first rounder.

This is what W's fans fail to understand. Monta is nothing more than a sixth man on most good teams. He's only the best player on the team if he's a Warrior. Giving up Udoh hurts, but if healthy Bogut, Avi, Clay, and Steph form a nice and balanced core that can actually complement each other. If they end up flipping ShotJax for Jefferson the deal looks even better.

C -- Bogut/Beans
PF -- Avi/Tyler
SF -- Wright/Jefferson/McGuire
SG -- Thompson/Rush
PG -- Steph/Jenkins

Add in a lottery pick (Sullinger/Moultrie/Robinson) and you've got something to build around.

I like the deal. I would've liked it better if we sent out Avi and Monta for Bogut and Jax, but the W's FO is committed to Avi.