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OT: 6th grader brings gun to school

NinerSickness

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I see what you're saying. "Nobody" is hyperbole. We'll always have some assholes who are willing to kill themselves in order to kill others. I'm sure people can think of a lot of examples of this.
 

Jikkle

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The 2nd amendment had a 3 fold intention

One was for your personal protection

Two was for the protection of the state

Three was protection from the state should it become tyrannical

I mean if nobody owned guns then there would be no Revolutionary War since there would be no weapons to fight it. So the founding fathers understood that if the local citizenry ever had need to overthrow the government then they needed to own guns.
 

abaskin18

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I see what you're saying. "Nobody" is hyperbole. We'll always have some assholes who are willing to kill themselves in order to kill others. I'm sure people can think of a lot of examples of this.

Actually what I'm saying is that safety through the means of mutually assured destruction is a nice theory but in practice led to an arms race where we were taken to the brink of nuclear holocaust on more than one occasion (and that's just the times that were made public) and that the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction have made them available and sought by those who want just that: mass destruction.
 

NinerSickness

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Actually what I'm saying is the safety through the means of mutually assured destruction is a nice theory but in practice led to an arms race where we were taken to the brink of nuclear holocaust on more than one occasion (and that's just the times that were made public) and that the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction are now available and being sought by those who want just that: mass destruction.

This is exactly what I mean. In the 70 years since a couple of bombs ended World War 2, nobody has actually gone through with it. And as far as nation against nation conflics goes, the last 70 years have actually been some of the most peaceful times in the history of mankind for countries with nuclear capabilites.

But your example of the people who want destruction (like Hamas, Iran, etc), are precisely the kinds of assholes to whom I was referring. Nothing will stop them from trying to kill. That's why there will always be the need to fight back.
 
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abaskin18

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This is exactly what I mean. In the 70 years since a couple of bombs ended World War 2, nobody has actually gone through with it. And as far as nation against nation conflics goes, the last 70 years have actually been some of the most peaceful times in the history of mankind for countries with nuclear capabilites.

Yep, nice in the vacuum of a theory. Not so much in real world we live in today. I suppose you wouldn't mind if Iran, Syria and Palestine were nuclear powers?
 

NinerSickness

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Yep, nice in the vacuum of a theory. Not so much in real world we live in today. I suppose you wouldn't mind if Iran, Syria and Palestine were nuclear powers?

Those are the kinds of assholes to whom I was referring. They will never listen to reason; they have to be fought. But I'm more than happy nations like the UK, Germany France, etc. have nuclear power.
 

TobyTyler

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Not presumptive at all there. :thumb:

Whatever though, I'm not getting into a discussion about the 2nd Amendment. To me it's not really at the heart or really anywhere close to why people want/have guns. It's just the thin justification people can run to. Likewise, I don't think people evoke the 5th Amendment on principle either.

Exactly.
 

abaskin18

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Those are the kinds of assholes to whom I was referring. They will never listen to reason; they have to be fought. But I'm more than happy nations like the UK, Germany France, etc. have nuclear power.

So you are in favor of actions being taken to prevent certain weapons from being available to certain people?
 

TobyTyler

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The 2nd amendment had a 3 fold intention

One was for your personal protection

Two was for the protection of the state

Three was protection from the state should it become tyrannical

I mean if nobody owned guns then there would be no Revolutionary War since there would be no weapons to fight it. So the founding fathers understood that if the local citizenry ever had need to overthrow the government then they needed to own guns.

They were now in power so this is exactly why they did not want the citizenry to own guns and threw in the "well regulated militia being necessary" part. They weren't dumb.
 

DoobieKeebler

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Interesting hypothesis if I'm reading you correctly. Do you think the gun owning community would be largely like minded in supporting the legislation we've discussed here if they weren't up against such obstacles and could simply write a letter to a representative?

I'm not trying to minimize what you've said here, at all. I think those obstacles are all valid. I just don't think they justify sitting on the sidelines if people really did want a change. My contention is that they do not, in fact, want that change so I understand why the sit idly by or regurgitate arguments that gridlock the process. I don't understand how you (again, if I'm reading you correctly) manage to reconcile being merely reactive if you indeed want that change though.

In any case, I'm very happy to see where this discussion went, at least our last few back and forths anyway.

Politically I'm generally a pretty fringe-worthy, left-leaning person except for certain issues like gun control where I become more moderate. I would like to think most gun owners would agree with most of the ideas we've thrown back & forth, but I think the ever increasingly polarized nature of American politics fosters an environment that makes compromise increasingly difficult. I'm not sure the percentages, but there is a very large contingent of gun owners that I do not think would support gun restrictions of any form, and I believe it has a lot to do with politics.

As for me, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, re: my being "reactionary." I mean, I get what you've said, but I'm not entirely sure what could trouble you about how I view the situation. I view my approach as pragmatic instead of reactionary, though I would technically agree with that labeling. I would vote, I would call or write my congressman/senators, but I also live in a hugely democratic area (Humboldt), where the views of my representatives lean further toward gun abolition than merely restriction. Congress/Senators usually don't care what you have to say unless you can vote them out, so it does no good, for instance, to contact a West Virginian congressman to tell him I am opposed to hydraulic fracking if I live in California and they don't do it where I live.

Let me give another example, though it is also off topic. When Prop 8 passed I was living in SF and working near the Castro. After 8 passed, social organizers in SF created an idea for a protest called "Day Without a Gay." The idea was that there would be a day where all gay people around SF would "call in Gay" to work and stay home, showing people how important the LGBTQ community is to society, and hopefully creating a dialogue that would lead to the repeal of Prop 8. I was stopped on the streets of SF so a local news reporter could ask what I thought of the idea as a resident of SF. I argued that the protest was unnecessary and ill-conceived because San Francisco voted almost 90% against Prop 8, and small business at the time of the '08 recession were struggling to merely stay open, so to protest against the very people who were backing the LGBTQ community was basically preaching to the choir while hurting SF, which would not change anything in Sacramento, or the areas that held different views. If change was going to happen, the people who disagreed would need to be convinced to change their minds, not the people who already agreed, except that the protest was not going to take place in Sacramento or Orange County.

So, sorry that went way off track, but the point is there. If gun control is going to work, getting all pissed off in a gun control supporting area doesn't accomplish much, whereas states like Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and Idaho, will be the battlegrounds in convincing people that ANY gun restrictions at all should be enacted. With that, there is not really much of a lead I can take on an issue like gun control unless I sign petitions, or send money.


I'm also "reactionary" because I smoke a ton of pot... but you didn't hear that from me.
:behindsofa:
 

NinerSickness

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They were now in power so this is exactly why they did not want the citizenry to own guns and threw in the "well regulated militia being necessary" part. They weren't dumb.

Those were the same people who wrote this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
."
 

abaskin18

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Politically I'm generally a pretty fringe-worthy, left-leaning person except for certain issues like gun control where I become more moderate. I would like to think most gun owners would agree with most of the ideas we've thrown back & forth, but I think the ever increasingly polarized nature of American politics fosters an environment that makes compromise increasingly difficult. I'm not sure the percentages, but there is a very large contingent of gun owners that I do not think would support gun restrictions of any form, and I believe it has a lot to do with politics.

As for me, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, re: my being "reactionary." I mean, I get what you've said, but I'm not entirely sure what could trouble you about how I view the situation. I view my approach as pragmatic instead of reactionary, though I would technically agree with that labeling. I would vote, I would call or write my congressman/senators, but I also live in a hugely democratic area (Humboldt), where the views of my representatives lean further toward gun abolition than merely restriction. Congress/Senators usually don't care what you have to say unless you can vote them out, so it does no good, for instance, to contact a West Virginian congressman to tell him I am opposed to hydraulic fracking if I live in California and they don't do it where I live.

Let me give another example, though it is also off topic. When Prop 8 passed I was living in SF and working near the Castro. After 8 passed, social organizers in SF created an idea for a protest called "Day Without a Gay." The idea was that there would be a day where all gay people around SF would "call in Gay" to work and stay home, showing people how important the LGBTQ community is to society, and hopefully creating a dialogue that would lead to the repeal of Prop 8. I was stopped on the streets of SF so a local news reporter could ask what I thought of the idea as a resident of SF. I argued that the protest was unnecessary and ill-conceived because San Francisco voted almost 90% against Prop 8, and small business at the time of the '08 recession were struggling to merely stay open, so to protest against the very people who were backing the LGBTQ community was basically preaching to the choir while hurting SF, which would not change anything in Sacramento, or the areas that held different views. If change was going to happen, the people who disagreed would need to be convinced to change their minds, not the people who already agreed, except that the protest was not going to take place in Sacramento or Orange County.

So, sorry that went way off track, but the point is there. If gun control is going to work, getting all pissed off in a gun control supporting area doesn't accomplish much, whereas states like Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and Idaho, will be the battlegrounds in convincing people that ANY gun restrictions at all should be enacted. With that, there is not really much of a lead I can take on an issue like gun control unless I sign petitions, or send money.


I'm also "reactionary" because I smoke a ton of pot... but you didn't hear that from me.
:behindsofa:

Reactive, not reactionary, as opposed to proactive (supporting as opposed to suggesting).

EDIT: As for what you can do, write your congressperson, senator and president and let them know what types of reforms you'd support as a proud and responsible gun owner. It'd really help.
 
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TobyTyler

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Those were the same people who wrote this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
."


They sure did, and they wrote that before they were in power and free from Britain. They were talking about their right to free themselves from Britain. You can bet though that they changed their tune quickly once they got in power; just like any other revolutionaries.
 

NinerSickness

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[/B]

They sure did, and they wrote that before they were in power and free from Britain. They were talking about their right to free themselves from Britain. You can bet though that they changed their tune quickly once they got in power; just like any other revolutionaries.

Other revolutionaries didn't peacfully give up power like the Federalists did in 1801. That was the first time in human history that had happened. They were different.

"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends"
 

DoobieKeebler

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Reactive, not reactionary, as opposed to proactive (supporting as opposed to suggesting).

EDIT: As for what you can do, write your congressperson, senator and president and let them know what types of reforms you'd support as a proud and responsible gun owner. It'd really help.

Maybe my post became too long winded for me to get my point across...

My Congressman of the First District of CA, Mike Thompson, agrees with my basic viewpoint on guns, and infact was *just* appointed by Nancy Pelosi to head the congressional "Gun Control Task Force."
Nancy Pelosi: Gun Control Task Force To Be Led By Mike Thompson

Senator Diane Feinstein is proposing gun control legislation.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein to Introduce Gun Control Bill | KTLA 5

Junior Senator Barbara Boxer stands by Senator Feinstein's proposed bill on gun control, and supports gun control.
Barbara Boxer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


President Obama just tasked VP Joe Biden to head up a commission with the goal of spearheading rational gun legislation.
Obama Passes Gun Control to Biden : The New Yorker


So my question still is, what real change am I going to make in this situation? Everyone in government I can contact is way ahead of me on this issue. There are other issues that relate to me that don't have the same support as gun control has gotten as of late, so I would be "preaching to the choir."

As I said before, if I lived in Oklahoma, Texas, Idaho, or Utah, I would agree with you, but many politicians think of letters, phone calls, and emails as merely noise. That doesn't mean people should never participate and voice their opinion, but one must choose their battles, and it is unnecessary to over extend one's self for a battle they already won. Thompson, Feinstein, Boxer, and Obama are not my concerns at this point. If they do something stupid, that may change, but I have to let them try to fuck up first before I can tell them what for.
 
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abaskin18

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Maybe my post became too long winded for me to get my point across...

My Congressman of the First District of CA, Mike Thompson, agrees with my basic viewpoint on guns, and infact was *just* appointed by Nancy Pelosi to head the congressional "Gun Control Task Force."
Nancy Pelosi: Gun Control Task Force To Be Led By Mike Thompson

Senator Diane Feinstein is proposing gun control legislation.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein to Introduce Gun Control Bill | KTLA 5

Junior Senator Barbara Boxer stands by Senator Feinstein's proposed bill on gun control, and supports gun control.
Barbara Boxer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


President Obama just tasked VP Joe Biden to head up a commission with the goal of spearheading rational gun legislation.
Obama Passes Gun Control to Biden : The New Yorker


So my question still is, what real change am I going to make in this situation? Everyone in government I can contact is way ahead of me on this issue. There are other issues that relate to me that don't have the same support as gun control has gotten as of late, so I would be "preaching to the choir."

As I said before, if I lived in Oklahoma, Texas, Idaho, or Utah, I would agree with you, but many politicians think of letters, phone calls, and emails as merely noise. That doesn't mean people should never participate and voice their opinion, but one must choose their battles, and it is unnecessary to over extend one's self for a battle they already won. Thompson, Feinstein, Boxer, and Obama are not my concerns at this point. If they do something stupid, that may change, but I have to let them try to fuck up first before I can tell them what for.

If they can demonstrate that even their constituents who are pro-gun support many of the suggested reforms the argument becomes that much stronger.
 

TobyTyler

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Other revolutionaries didn't peacfully give up power like the Federalists did in 1801. That was the first time in human history that had happened. They were different.

"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends"

Doubt that seriously. The British parliament was changing hands constantly way before that.
 
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