Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

[Johnnydollaz89]

Oh boy:

tsnscottcullen: RT @mc79hockey: “Other than Ryan McDonagh, I don’t see a significant difference between the Leafs and the Rangers.” -Steve Simmons

all i'm gonna say. No disrespect to Leaf fans at all.

 

[dash]

Do you think that the Sharks and the Flames are at the same stage in their team development?

Oh, so now stage of team development comes into the equation? The main premise of your previous posts was that no team should be giving up a 3rd round pick for a 4th line player when you can pick up these guys easily without surrendering an asset. That's a pretty big shift of the goalposts.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Oh, so now stage of team development comes into the equation? The main premise of your previous posts was that no team should be giving up a 3rd round pick for a 4th line player when you can pick up these guys easily without surrendering an asset. That's a pretty big shift of the goalposts.

Reread the thread. I mentioned multiple times that a team needs to have "cake" in place before worrying about "icing" (is it coming back to you now that I used the analogy again?). I wouldn't give up a 3rd for a 4th line player, but there's at least an argument to be made if it's a finishing piece.

I'd also add that McGinn is only 23 (not 27) and has actually scored points at a few levels along the way.

 

[mattola]

#tblightning has hired former GM Jay Feaster as it's executive director of community hockey development

 

[dash]

Reread the thread. I mentioned multiple times that a team needs to have "cake" in place before worrying about "icing" (is it coming back to you now that I used the analogy again?). I wouldn't give up a 3rd for a 4th line player, but there's at least an argument to be made if it's a finishing piece.

I'd also add that McGinn is only 23 (not 27) and has actually scored points at a few levels along the way.

Tye McGinn is no icing, he's more the file in a prison cake. As for stage of team development, I would say the Sharks are post-apex and starting to trend downward while the Flames are in year two of a rebuild which is obviously going to take some time (however, they do have some pretty good prospects in the system). I really don't think Doug Wilson thinks Tye McGinn is the finishing piece to anything (maybe he has a good MMA finishing move, I don't know).

 

[DragonfromTO]

Oh, so now stage of team development comes into the equation? The main premise of your previous posts was that no team should be giving up a 3rd round pick for a 4th line player when you can pick up these guys easily without surrendering an asset. That's a pretty big shift of the goalposts.

There's plenty of time/opportunity to add 4th line plugs cheap once you have other pieces in place, you don't have to give up 3rd round picks to get them at the very start of your rebuild.

Well I think that everyone knows that what a 27th place team probably really needs to turn it around is a decent 4th line.

I don't think it's a "terrible" move. I just think that the upside of a 3rd round pick is worth more to a rebuilding team at the bottom of the standings. Cake needs to come before icing, and a 3rd rounder still has a chance to be cake.

If I were in Calgary's position early on in a rebuilding effort I'd rather take on the risk associated with a 3rd round pick. I'd rather have a chance of getting a top 6 forward/top 4 defenseman and risk the downside of ending up with nothing.

Like I said though, even if he doesn't work out it's still worth the risk at this stage in the rebuilding process. You don't build a winner by collecting 4th liners, you do it by trying to find top 6 guys. I suspect that Burke disagrees with me somewhat since he did basically the same thing by signing guys like Orr and Colby Armstrong while "rebuilding" the Leafs.

All of those direct quotes reference the team's stage of development.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Reread the thread. I mentioned multiple times that a team needs to have "cake" in place before worrying about "icing" (is it coming back to you now that I used the analogy again?). I wouldn't give up a 3rd for a 4th line player, but there's at least an argument to be made if it's a finishing piece.

I'd also add that McGinn is only 23 (not 27) and has actually scored points at a few levels along the way.

Does it really matter if the Sharks are farther along than the Flames? Bad hockey deal is bad

EDIT: You could make the case the Sharks should be trying to at least re-tool, so giving up 3rd round picks for unproven players make zero sense - they should be accumulating picks

 

[DragonfromTO]

Tye McGinn is no icing, he's more the file in a prison cake. As for stage of team development, I would say the Sharks are post-apex and starting to trend downward while the Flames are in year two of a rebuild which is obviously going to take some time (however, they do have some pretty good prospects in the system). I really don't think Doug Wilson thinks Tye McGinn is the finishing piece to anything (maybe he has a good MMA finishing move, I don't know).

Do you think that they see themselves that way?

 

[dash]

Do you think that they see themselves that way?

Well, they should because they have basically kept the same core that hasn't gotten the job done for several seasons now. All of their key players are getting older and it's hard to imagine their production getting any better, so yes, if they're being realistic, they should be trying to move guys and start at least a re-tooling effort if not a re-building effort.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Does it really matter if the Sharks are farther along than the Flames? Bad hockey deal is bad

Yes it does matter. For a team that is trying to win now it can at least be argued that it's worth giving up future upside to make a marginal gain now. For a team starting its rebuild the argument is a lot tougher to make.

I'm not saying that the McGinn deal is a good one, because I don't like McGinn enough. But I'd dislike it more if a bottom 5 team made it even if I did like McGinn enough, because it doesn't fit what they should be doing in the first place.

It's like the difference between a last place team acquiring a really shitty 35 year old vs. acquiring a really shitty 20 year old. While both are mistakes, the latter is simply a mistake in asset valuation. The former is a mistake both in asset valuation and procedure/process.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Yes it does matter. For a team that is trying to win now it can at least be argued that it's worth giving up future upside to make a marginal gain now. For a team starting its rebuild the argument is a lot tougher to make.

I'm not saying that the McGinn deal is a good one, because I don't like McGinn enough. But I'd dislike it more if a bottom 5 team made it even if I did like McGinn enough, because it doesn't fit what they should be doing in the first place.

It's like the difference between a last place team acquiring a really shitty 35 year old vs. acquiring a really shitty 20 year old. While both are mistakes, the latter is simply a mistake in asset valuation. The former is a mistake both in asset valuation and procedure/process.

So Tye McGinn is the difference between winning the first round and not winning the first round? He's anything but a marginal gain, he's mediocre and he's not making the Sharks any better - the Sharks are not in the position that the Kings, Blackhawks, Bruins and a few others are in, where they know they're going to be really good and it would be worth taking a chance, especially when those teams are in a spot where they are challenged with the cap - the Sharks aren't challenged with the salary cap like those teams so they shouldn't be giving up good picks like that just to bring in a guy that they think MIGHT help them

If the Sharks made this deal it would be a bad deal and if a team like the Oilers made this deal, it would be a bad deal as well - you don't give up a third round pick for Tye McGinn

 

[DragonfromTO]

So Tye McGinn is the difference between winning the first round and not winning the first round? He's anything but a marginal gain, he's mediocre and he's not making the Sharks any better - the Sharks are not in the position that the Kings, Blackhawks, Bruins and a few others are in, where they know they're going to be really good and it would be worth taking a chance, especially when those teams are in a spot where they are challenged with the cap - the Sharks aren't challenged with the salary cap like those teams so they shouldn't be giving up good picks like that just to bring in a guy that they think MIGHT help them

If the Sharks made this deal it would be a bad deal and if a team like the Oilers made this deal, it would be a bad deal as well - you don't give up a third round pick for Tye McGinn

I'm not fucking defending the deal!

I'm not saying that the McGinn deal is a good one, because I don't like McGinn enough. But I'd dislike it more if a bottom 5 team made it even if I did like McGinn enough, because it doesn't fit what they should be doing in the first place.

I'm saying it's not a mistake of process, so it's not as stupid a move as a terrible team making it. Doug Wilson and I would seem to disagree about what Tye McGinn is. Whereas if the Oilers were making this deal, MacTavish and I would be disagreeing both about what Tye McGinn is and about what what he thinks he is means to the team.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Oh boy:

tsnscottcullen: RT @mc79hockey: “Other than Ryan McDonagh, I don’t see a significant difference between the Leafs and the Rangers.” -Steve Simmons

 

[mattola]

Oh boy:

tsnscottcullen: RT @mc79hockey: “Other than Ryan McDonagh, I don’t see a significant difference between the Leafs and the Rangers.” -Steve Simmons

 

[puckhead]

Oh boy:
“Other than Ryan McDonagh, I don’t see a significant difference between the Leafs and the Rangers.” -Steve Simmons

how the fuck does that retard have a job?
I don't mean a sports reporting job, I mean I wouldn't trust him to fill my car with gas.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

You guys need to lay off Simmons.

All he meant was that both teams come from the bug conference. Or something.

/Or maybe it's layoff?

 

[Otis B. Driftwood]

OK... now I'm afraid. The To***to Sun just hopped on the Jim Nill bandwagon.

@RickGosselinDMN: The hockey folks up north like what GM Jim Nill is doing with the Stars: Dallas Stars the big winners of free-agent frenzy | Hockey | Sports | Toronto Su

 

[Canuck eh?]

OK... now I'm afraid. The To***to Sun just hopped on the Jim Nill bandwagon.

@RickGosselinDMN: The hockey folks up north like what GM Jim Nill is doing with the Stars: Dallas Stars the big winners of free-agent frenzy | Hockey | Sports | Toronto Su

I'm really surprised they know who Jim Nill is Otis. I don't think he's ever worked in To***to.

 

[Otis B. Driftwood]

I'm really surprised they know who Jim Nill is Otis. I don't think he's ever worked in To***to.

They also obviously don't know who the starting goalie is down here. I do and hence my ongoing concerns.

 

[forty_three]

Michael Arace commentary: It?s just negotiating, not a slap in the face | BlueJackets Xtra

There's at least one writer in town who is not pants on head retarded.

Loved this bit:

Blue Jackets general manager Jarmo Kekalainen is countering: "We will bring Toews into the discussion only after Ryan has won two Stanley Cups and an Olympic gold medal. We will match any offer sheets, unless they come from the Oilers — in which case we’ll take three or four high draft picks and allow Ryan to play in Edmonton. We want to do a bridge contract so that Ryan can prove that he is worth telephone numbers the next time we sit down at this table. We will not do a four-year deal only to see him leave town for nothing in 2018."

For a guy I had barely heard of a year and a half ago, Jarmo is pretty much my favorite person in hockey right now.