Off-Season Thread

[Cincyfan78]

Perhaps, but you don't know this for a fact. You are assuming this is how it was. Cap is in the same situation, so either way it is still run just as well.

I don't think it's a stretch.

Brown was notoriously cheap. There is a history of how his signings were handled.

Since Katie, Troy, and Tobin took over in 2019, I think, you can see a vast change in how they approach their signings.

Both sides kept the cap down, but the latter is working within the cap to actually sign key players - where as, under Brown, it was always back end F/A and such.

I mean - this goes back through the 90's. It's not really an assumption. It's exactly how he ran the organization. It wasn't until Marvin came around that some things started to change - but Brown never embraced free agency, and said as much in the early 90's - he was against it full force. Not sure if you remember those days, or not...

Browns biggest issue was that his dad died just before F/A became a thing. He held onto that Paul Brown model in honor of his father, but forgot that his father was an innovator and changed with the times as needed. His penchant for wanting to win 'his way' precluded him from spending money. Hell, it wasn't even until they introduced a floor to the cap that forced teams to spend that he even started spending some.

But regardless - where this organization is at now is worlds away from where Brown was in the 90's and even early 2000's under Marvin.

 

[DanBengalfan]

I don't think it's a stretch.

Brown was notoriously cheap. There is a history of how his signings were handled.

Since Katie, Troy, and Tobin took over in 2019, I think, you can see a vast change in how they approach their signings.

Both sides kept the cap down, but the latter is working within the cap to actually sign key players - where as, under Brown, it was always back end F/A and such.

I mean - this goes back through the 90's. It's not really an assumption. It's exactly how he ran the organization. It wasn't until Marvin came around that some things started to change - but Brown never embraced free agency, and said as much in the early 90's - he was against it full force. Not sure if you remember those days, or not...

Browns biggest issue was that his dad died just before F/A became a thing. He held onto that Paul Brown model in honor of his father, but forgot that his father was an innovator and changed with the times as needed. His penchant for wanting to win 'his way' precluded him from spending money. Hell, it wasn't even until they introduced a floor to the cap that forced teams to spend that he even started spending some.

But regardless - where this organization is at now is worlds away from where Brown was in the 90's and even early 2000's under Marvin.

yep. they had a made up cap figure that was actually 89.5% of the cap, and made old geoff go along with it that that was the actual salary cap. Maybe it was their budget, but it wasn't the actual salary cap.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

yep. they had a made up cap figure that was actually 89.5% of the cap, and made old geoff go along with it that that was the actual salary cap. Maybe it was their budget, but it wasn't the actual salary cap.

It was their made up budget because they used draft picks and injury replacement during season as excuses. However, things are great now. I like what we have been doing. I think Katie will continue to be a great owner, and she is grooming her girls to be just as good.

 

[DanBengalfan]

It was their made up budget because they used draft picks and injury replacement during season as excuses. However, things are great now. I like what we have been doing. I think Katie will continue to be a great owner, and she is grooming her girls to be just as good.

yep. as long as you have a QB like Joe Burrow, I think it makes since to spend the money and gamble on possible success. if Joe B retires due to injury or whatever, well, you're starting from square 1, there will be a kind of exodus of talent.

 

[cincygrad]

Interesting to see how teams are approaching their cap situations. Safety is one position that teams are refusing to overspend (or to continue to overspend). I think most people pin a lot of our Ds trouble last year on inexperience at safety..... This doesn't seem to be a concern of these teams that are choosing to go this route. More of a head scratcher at this point than anything else, but something to monitor.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Interesting to see how teams are approaching their cap situations. Safety is one position that teams are refusing to overspend (or to continue to overspend). I think most people pin a lot of our Ds trouble last year on inexperience at safety..... This doesn't seem to be a concern of these teams that are choosing to go this route. More of a head scratcher at this point than anything else, but something to monitor.

I think it is easy to point to Safety as a big reason why the defense struggled, but I don't think that's really fair to either guy.

You also had a 1st year CB and a 2nd year CB ( who missed a lot of time due to injury) and a CB who wasn't the same after ACL surgery.

You also had a poor showing on the DL in the run game as well, specifically the 3-tech spot.

It wasn't just 1 area that struggled last year - it was multiple - I think Safety got hurt because of the loss of Bates and Bell was fresh - but when you look up and down the defense - there were a lot of fresh faces all over that secondary (rookie CB, rookie S, 2nd year CB, 2nd year Safety - but first time playing there). Couple that with the loss of other CB's that were let go - and then the lackluster play at the line and you got what you got.

It also didn't help that for the first 1/3 of the season the Bengals offense was soo pitiful that they were leading the league in 3-outs, forcing the defense to be on the field an inordinate amount of time.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Also...

 

[cincygrad]

I think it is easy to point to Safety as a big reason why the defense struggled, but I don't think that's really fair to either guy.

You also had a 1st year CB and a 2nd year CB ( who missed a lot of time due to injury) and a CB who wasn't the same after ACL surgery.

You also had a poor showing on the DL in the run game as well, specifically the 3-tech spot.

It wasn't just 1 area that struggled last year - it was multiple - I think Safety got hurt because of the loss of Bates and Bell was fresh - but when you look up and down the defense - there were a lot of fresh faces all over that secondary (rookie CB, rookie S, 2nd year CB, 2nd year Safety - but first time playing there). Couple that with the loss of other CB's that were let go - and then the lackluster play at the line and you got what you got.

It also didn't help that for the first 1/3 of the season the Bengals offense was soo pitiful that they were leading the league in 3-outs, forcing the defense to be on the field an inordinate amount of time.

I completely agree. I think our fans want to blame Dax Hill for all of the defensive struggles. I don't think it's that easy. I also think Lou didn't do as good of job of adjusting as he has in the past.

 

[cincygrad]

Also...

I was just getting ready to post the same article. This year will be a good test of whether this trend is a bad move. It also calls into question how much you value top picks at the position given the dominance of two high looks. Jordan Battle was thought to be athletically limited in some ways which is why he slipped to the 3rd. But he knows HOW to play safety - And that showed up in his performance and his ratings. Dax Hill is a phenomenal athlete that struggles with some of the duties of safety. Worth watching.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I was just getting ready to post the same article. This year will be a good test of whether this trend is a bad move. It also calls into question how much you value top picks at the position given the dominance of two high looks. Jordan Battle was thought to be athletically limited in some ways which is why he slipped to the 3rd. But he knows HOW to play safety - And that showed up in his performance and his ratings. Dax Hill is a phenomenal athlete that struggles with some of the duties of safety. Worth watching.

It also hurt that they lost BOTH guys at the same time in Bates and Bell. Sure, they drafted Hill to replace Bates, but he got almost no experience at Safety that year because Bates was there.

Had he been paired with Bell for a full season - what may have happened? We'll never know.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I completely agree. I think our fans want to blame Dax Hill for all of the defensive struggles. I don't think it's that easy. I also think Lou didn't do as good of job of adjusting as he has in the past.

Couldn't agree more on Lou.

Thought there were areas to try and change things up - but then again, Lou is a really good DC, so I give him the benefit last year. If he wasn't doing something, I think it's because they simply didn't have the experience, or personnel, to make those changes.

I.E. - Hard to blitz more when your secondary is already so young and giving up chunk plays. Yet, if you drop 6-7, a good offense is going to pick that a part because no DB can cover for 4-5-6 seconds every play...

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I completely agree. I think our fans want to blame Dax Hill for all of the defensive struggles. I don't think it's that easy. I also think Lou didn't do as good of job of adjusting as he has in the past.

I think Lou did just fine, what he didn't have was a veteran safety to make the necessary on the fly adjustments during game. I am not fully blaming Hill as I think he did fine, but the way Lou runs this defense, he has to have that leader / communicator in his safety position, because everything else is based on that. I think Dax did fine, I think Lou did fine, but for this defense to be at that level it was 2 years ago, it needs a Bates type of guy in the FS position to run the defense.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I think Lou did just fine, what he didn't have was a veteran safety to make the necessary on the fly adjustments during game. I am not fully blaming Hill as I think he did fine, but the way Lou runs this defense, he has to have that leader / communicator in his safety position, because everything else is based on that. I think Dax did fine, I think Lou did fine, but for this defense to be at that level it was 2 years ago, it needs a Bates type of guy in the FS position to run the defense.

An issue arises when you have an entire segment of the defense as young as they did ... 2 rookies and 2 2nd year guys...all in the secondary...it makes it hard to hide and work the defense to prevent some of those issues that can be prevented when you have 2 more veteran guys at either of those spots.

Then you add the DL issues - and...well..

 

[CrashDavisSports]

An issue arises when you have an entire segment of the defense as young as they did ...

They still had veterans to help lead that group in Hilton and Awuzie, and Cam plays and leads like a vet at a young age. Hilton was on the field more with them, but it isn't like there was no veteran leadership. It is strictly the veteran presence and the ability to be able to communicate with the defense on adjustments prior to snaps and being responsible for as much as Lou puts on his safeties.

 

[Cincyfan78]

They still had veterans to help lead that group in Hilton and Awuzie, and Cam plays and leads like a vet at a young age. Hilton was on the field more with them, but it isn't like there was no veteran leadership. It is strictly the veteran presence and the ability to be able to communicate with the defense on adjustments prior to snaps and being responsible for as much as Lou puts on his safeties.

Hilton plays nickle, so he's not always on the field. Awuzie was a shell after ACL surgery, and wasn't a starter - he only got on the field for breaks and when CTB/Turner missed time/games.

The reality is - you put a secondary together where the majority of the snaps/starts go to 4 guys with a combined 2 years experience - there are going to be bumps. I'm guessing there was hope that the DL would play better than it did and help aleiviate those issues - but that group also took a big hit with the lackluster play at the 3-tech.

I think the secondary will be much improved next year. Turner and Battle will have a full off-season after playing to digest more of the defense and the schemes and what is asked of them. Same for Hill and CTB - who will have their 2nd off-season in doing this, and for Hill his first off-season as a safety after spending his rookie year as a CB spelling Hilton in the slot, or in a dime formation.

So, yes - they had some veterans - but I think their impact was limited because they weren't always on the field together to get guys aligned and help set up pre-snap. Hilton even talked about it after the season - the youth affected his play because he was trying to do too much - he was trying to get everyone aligned when he could, and try and cover up where he saw mistakes coming - and it took him out of his normal game and took away some of his effectiveness.

They signed Scott - but he didn't do much, and he was also new to the scheme...so...he wasn't really much of a help there.

Again - the bonus to all of this is now you have 4 guys in the secondary who have a full season, or two, under their belts. They will be better prepared to fill in some of those gaps and roles that were missed last year.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Hilton plays nickle, so he's not always on the field. Awuzie was a shell after ACL surgery, and wasn't a starter - he only got on the field for breaks and when CTB/Turner missed time/games.

The reality is - you put a secondary together where the majority of the snaps/starts go to 4 guys with a combined 2 years experience - there are going to be bumps. I'm guessing there was hope that the DL would play better than it did and help aleiviate those issues - but that group also took a big hit with the lackluster play at the 3-tech.

I think the secondary will be much improved next year. Turner and Battle will have a full off-season after playing to digest more of the defense and the schemes and what is asked of them. Same for Hill and CTB - who will have their 2nd off-season in doing this, and for Hill his first off-season as a safety after spending his rookie year as a CB spelling Hilton in the slot, or in a dime formation.

So, yes - they had some veterans - but I think their impact was limited because they weren't always on the field together to get guys aligned and help set up pre-snap. Hilton even talked about it after the season - the youth affected his play because he was trying to do too much - he was trying to get everyone aligned when he could, and try and cover up where he saw mistakes coming - and it took him out of his normal game and took away some of his effectiveness.

They signed Scott - but he didn't do much, and he was also new to the scheme...so...he wasn't really much of a help there.

Again - the bonus to all of this is now you have 4 guys in the secondary who have a full season, or two, under their belts. They will be better prepared to fill in some of those gaps and roles that were missed last year.

I hope so, but I wouldn't put all my trust in it if we are trying to get back to the SB before dismantling some of this next year. I would find a savvy vet that can do what Lou needs at the safety position.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I hope so, but I wouldn't put all my trust in it if we are trying to get back to the SB before dismantling some of this next year. I would find a savvy vet that can do what Lou needs at the safety position.

Honestly - I think they can add a guy in a backup role who's just better than Scott was...then again, it was more for him to come in and allow Battle to get his feet under him....once that happened...Battle took over and Scott fell out of favor. They'll likely want that anyway, but...

I'm not against kicking the tires on a Safety - but I think the safety spot gets too much blame overall for the failures of the defense last year. Battle graded out very well. If he takes another step and continues to grow - and Turner and CTB continue to take their next steps...even if Hill isn't Bates, he won't have to be. At that point you have 3 above average starters in the secondary - and that allows Lou to find ways to scheme how to best use Hill and hide him a little bit. But, I'm also not breaking the bank to go find a safety, either. The Bengals drafted this quartet of guys to be their secondary - and they need more than just 1 season together to really gel and get the schemes down.

Now - if they don't feel he's going to be a fit for what they need to do - and he's better off at the LOS in a Nickle/Dime or 3rd safety in coverage with a TE role, like he was his rookie year - then great...I got no issues....You do what you need to do - but again - I think a lot of blame went to a position simply because Bates and Bell were big name guys that left - and when the defense faltered they were an easy target.

But it's hard to draft a guy you see as a starter, play him at a completely different position, and then only give him 1 year to show you what he can/can't do and give up on him. While he was in his second year last year, he lost a lot of experience by not getting more reps at Safety. Lou probably should have found a better mix there knowing what was needed down the road.

I trust Lou - so I'm down for whatever makes this defense better - I just also won't be shocked if they stick with Hill at least one more year - and bank not only on him getting better, but also Turner, CTB, and Battle getting better too - and that will make the entire secondary look worlds better than it did last year. Especially if they can get the DL shored up.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Honestly - I think they can add a guy in a backup role who's just better than Scott was...then again, it was more for him to come in and allow Battle to get his feet under him....once that happened...Battle took over and Scott fell out of favor. They'll likely want that anyway, but...

I'm not against kicking the tires on a Safety - but I think the safety spot gets too much blame overall for the failures of the defense last year. Battle graded out very well. If he takes another step and continues to grow - and Turner and CTB continue to take their next steps...even if Hill isn't Bates, he won't have to be. At that point you have 3 above average starters in the secondary - and that allows Lou to find ways to scheme how to best use Hill and hide him a little bit. But, I'm also not breaking the bank to go find a safety, either. The Bengals drafted this quartet of guys to be their secondary - and they need more than just 1 season together to really gel and get the schemes down.

Now - if they don't feel he's going to be a fit for what they need to do - and he's better off at the LOS in a Nickle/Dime or 3rd safety in coverage with a TE role, like he was his rookie year - then great...I got no issues....You do what you need to do - but again - I think a lot of blame went to a position simply because Bates and Bell were big name guys that left - and when the defense faltered they were an easy target.

But it's hard to draft a guy you see as a starter, play him at a completely different position, and then only give him 1 year to show you what he can/can't do and give up on him. While he was in his second year last year, he lost a lot of experience by not getting more reps at Safety. Lou probably should have found a better mix there knowing what was needed down the road.

I trust Lou - so I'm down for whatever makes this defense better - I just also won't be shocked if they stick with Hill at least one more year - and bank not only on him getting better, but also Turner, CTB, and Battle getting better too - and that will make the entire secondary look worlds better than it did last year. Especially if they can get the DL shored up.

We will agree to disagree. I think Lou missing his defensive QB hurt the defense more than you are admitting. But that is okay, we don't have to agree on everything.

 

[Cincyfan78]

We will agree to disagree. I think Lou missing his defensive QB hurt the defense more than you are admitting. But that is okay, we don't have to agree on everything.

I don't think we really disagree that much. We both agree that the experience was missing...

Bringing in a brand new guy who doesn't know the scheme doesn't really help with that - they may have experience in the NFL - and maybe they can adapt a bit faster, sure...but will they know the ins/outs of the defense like Bates did? Bell did? No - that took a few years. Bates was drafted in 2018. Lou came around in 2019. Bates really didn't get onto the scene until that 2020 year...in fact, his 2020 year was on of his best, IIRC, as a Bengals. HIs 2021 year with the SB run was just OK until the playoffs, and 2022 was OK.

Thing is - Bates got a chance to grow because the Bengals were bad and then Burrow was hurt his rookie year...and the defense was also not great, and Reader got hurt in 2020. Bell came in with some regard in 2020, but that defense wasn't good...he really came on with Cincinnati under Lou in year 2...Even experienced guys like Bell have needed a season to digest the scheme that Lou has.

Again - if you had a 4th or 5th year vet next to Hill (or Battle) and/or a 4th or 5th year vet at CB - you likely don't see a lot of the miscues that we saw. The focus comes to the Safety position because that was the hardest hit with losing both Bell and Bates....

I'm not against getting a Safety - but I'm also not going to break the bank. I'd rather sign a sure fire RT or even a 3-Tech and get Reader back on board - and give this group 1 more year with Lou. You can't get experience until you get experience...and these guys were all drafted for a reason. Cutting bait after 1 year on the job is a good way to miss out on potentially really good players...and if they decide after this year Hill isn't an option at Safety - at that point Hilton will be a F/A and there's a spot to actually move him to - and then that opens the door for a F/A or a high(er) round pick - especially if Battle continues to improve.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Honestly - I think they can add a guy in a backup role who's just better than Scott was...then again, it was more for him to come in and allow Battle to get his feet under him....once that happened...Battle took over and Scott fell out of favor. They'll likely want that anyway, but...

I'm not against kicking the tires on a Safety - but I think the safety spot gets too much blame overall for the failures of the defense last year. Battle graded out very well. If he takes another step and continues to grow - and Turner and CTB continue to take their next steps...even if Hill isn't Bates, he won't have to be. At that point you have 3 above average starters in the secondary - and that allows Lou to find ways to scheme how to best use Hill and hide him a little bit. But, I'm also not breaking the bank to go find a safety, either. The Bengals drafted this quartet of guys to be their secondary - and they need more than just 1 season together to really gel and get the schemes down.

Now - if they don't feel he's going to be a fit for what they need to do - and he's better off at the LOS in a Nickle/Dime or 3rd safety in coverage with a TE role, like he was his rookie year - then great...I got no issues....You do what you need to do - but again - I think a lot of blame went to a position simply because Bates and Bell were big name guys that left - and when the defense faltered they were an easy target.

But it's hard to draft a guy you see as a starter, play him at a completely different position, and then only give him 1 year to show you what he can/can't do and give up on him. While he was in his second year last year, he lost a lot of experience by not getting more reps at Safety. Lou probably should have found a better mix there knowing what was needed down the road.

I trust Lou - so I'm down for whatever makes this defense better - I just also won't be shocked if they stick with Hill at least one more year - and bank not only on him getting better, but also Turner, CTB, and Battle getting better too - and that will make the entire secondary look worlds better than it did last year. Especially if they can get the DL shored up.

I know a lot of what you are saying is true. I just think Bates and Bell was more than could have been planned for. I like Hill. He has a lot of potential and I think you are right about maybe coming into his own and becoming a really good safety at some point, maybe even this season. But I think you easily point to the fact Lou plans his entire defense around Jesse Bates and his knowledge of the system, flexibility and leadership. Bates is what made this defense of Lou's work. So if we are going to keep Hill in that position, which is okay too, Lou has to figure out a new defense unless Hill shows real change this year.