North Korea's Kim Jong Il died

[Southern9er]

You're right....I made an exaggerated statement when saying the ONLY reason nobody has taken him out was because there's nothing worthwhile to grab. I caught too that after I posted it. And you're right that China would of course have something to say about it.....but that said, NK would have been quickly defeated in the 50s without Chinese involvement and probably would again after a short bloodbath.

Excellent piece on this from a few years ago, a war game run on NK and documented:

North Korea: The War Game - Magazine - The Atlantic

Great read...I think the estimates are spot on; however, characterizing it as a short blood bath is not a good descriptor. A war with Korea will have violence that we have not seen since fighting the Japanese in the Pacific.

That is what concerns everyone; what will China do? Last time they thought MacAthur got too far north tens of thousands of Chinese troops came south. China is different now...has much more to lose and really doesn't want a huge fight on the peninsula, their interests are aimed at Taiwan and the Spratly Islands, but they aren't ready for that yet.

Every weapon they have in their arsenal, they will use...and only China has a chance of stopping that, which would likely occur in the form of assistance if the NORKS remain conventional in their warfare. Their air defenses are older Soviet/Russian designed systems with significant upgrades and their employment in mountainous terrain is unique and dangerous. Consider what they've learned from Iraq and AFG...it will be a blood bath, but short is only defined by the war gamers and not the people fighting and living in those conditions. The problem with war gaming is they are very inaccurate at predicting one critical thing...the desire of a man to fight.

The poor economy of NORK, their isolation, and hatred of America makes them a perfect candidate for selling their nuclear, biological, or chemical wep technology to a terrorist tier. But the fear that the US would be able to finger print it right back to them, may be enough for them to want to maintain the status quo. Remember all they want is for the party to remain in power and enjoy their privileges, they really have no concern for economic growth.

 

[Southern9er]

I didn't say you said positive things about KJI. I said you defended him. You tried to minimize the blight that he is saying NK "has bigger problems" than him.

It just seems like you, and most people on the left who talk about these things, tend to give communists a pass whenever they can, and that pisses me off. Anita Dunn even went so far as to call the single largest killer of human beings in the history of the world one of her favourite political Philosophers. How can she even still have a job??? What if she said that about Hitler? Her carcass would be dragged through the streets like Mussolini! Mao made Hitler look like more like Ho Chi Min. So with all due respect to Souther9er I'm not going to "relax" about things like that.

You should...there's nothing you can do about it...other than argue with lefties that see more evil in abortion than death, starvation, torture, and oppression in NORK or Cuba. I respect and agree with your opinions; however, I will enjoy any situation where the "dear cockroach" is degraded and made the target of satire...degrading humor is a better than trying to teach a pig to sing (no offense to doo doo).

 

[Arete Tzu]

You should...there's nothing you can do about it...other than argue with lefties that see more evil in abortion than death, starvation, torture, and oppression in NORK or Cuba. I respect and agree with your opinions; however, I will enjoy any situation where the "dear cockroach" is degraded and made the target of satire...degrading humor is a better than trying to teach a pig to sing (no offense to doo doo).

huh? are you sure it's the left obsessed with the evil's of abortion? I don't know if anyone on any side likes death starvation and oppression, the left is also far more vocal against torture than then right. The right has done a lot to defend the use of torture.

 

[Arete Tzu]

Ok I'm going through this thread, let's see...

Spacedoodle said he can't be called a megalomaniac

Megalomania is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. 'Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'


let's see. shouldn't take more than one of his propaganda videos

 

[Arete Tzu]

^ beyond being a divine person who controlled weather, He once claimed he invented the Hamburger. The first time he played golf he was 38 underpar with 11 holes in one, which would be the greatest game ever. Official records show he walked at 3 weeks, talked at 8 weeks. He wrote 1500 books in 3 years, as well 6 of the best Operas in music history. He claims he doesn't take shits. When he fell off his horse and had to take pain killers, he made his entire staff take pain killers so he wouldn't be the only one. He built entire cities with no people for propaganda, and drank $700k worth of Cognac per year, as well as many other luxuries while his entire country is dealing with famines.

You sure that's not a megalomaniac?

he had speakers installed in every house so everyone hears what he wants them to hear... he has pictures of himself up everywhere and people have to treat them with respect. When he died there was reports of the sky turning red because nature was mourning his death.

 

[Arete Tzu]

I also disagree with sickness that Kim jung Il is the SINGLE cause, he the major cause and his policies have gone a far way to make things worse. No doubt a non tyrannical leader would greatly improve these people's lives, but even before lil Kim, North Korea had many short comings. SINGLE cause is an overestimation.

 

[NinerSickness]

I also disagree with sickness that Kim jung Il is the SINGLE cause, he the major cause and his policies have gone a far way to make things worse. No doubt a non tyrannical leader would greatly improve these people's lives, but even before lil Kim, North Korea had many short comings. SINGLE cause is an overestimation.

NK with no KJI was poor.

NK with KJI = starving. Big difference.

 

[Southern9er]

huh? are you sure it's the left obsessed with the evil's of abortion? I don't know if anyone on any side likes death starvation and oppression, the left is also far more vocal against torture than then right. The right has done a lot to defend the use of torture.

Really...guess this comes down to a Bill Clintonesque comment..."Depends on what the definition of 'is', is".

What you are talking about in regards to the right is NOTHING even REMOTELY close to what has gone on in NORK or any other country with a pissant cockroach for a leader. Stop with the attempts at moral equivalency. If Obama or Bush were torturing political rivals or using it to punish people for crimes you'd have a point.

Defending the use of certain interrogation techniques to stop human garbage from killing innocent civilians is a hefty bit different. Its not like we are pulling peoples arms out of their sockets by hanging them in chains from a ceiling, starving them to death in filth and human refuse, beating them senseless, carving on them with knives, or electrocuting them...

 

[Southern9er]

I also disagree with sickness that Kim jung Il is the SINGLE cause, he the major cause and his policies have gone a far way to make things worse. No doubt a non tyrannical leader would greatly improve these people's lives, but even before lil Kim, North Korea had many short comings. SINGLE cause is an overestimation.

What about Kim Jong Il's father??? His "policies"...seriously?!? What? They've gon a "far way to make things worse"...from his Kim Il Sung? Single cause is not an overestimation...you greatly lack historical context. "Lil Kim" is a singer and I doubt you were talking about Kim Jong's father.

Yeah...major fucking understatement...North Korea had many short comings before...its called a family tradition...I guess you're right he's not the single cause he is one of three...

How many generations do want this to continue?

 

[Arete Tzu]

What about Kim Jong Il's father??? His "policies"...seriously?!? What? They've gon a "far way to make things worse"...from his Kim Il Sung? Single cause is not an overestimation...you greatly lack historical context. "Lil Kim" is a singer and I doubt you were talking about Kim Jong's father.

Yeah...major fucking understatement...North Korea had many short comings before...its called a family tradition...I guess you're right he's not the single cause he is one of three...

How many generations do want this to continue?

lol @ you even mentioning the lil kim comment. It's called a joke, I think you might need to get over yourself, take a breath and stop making stupid assumptions.

I'm extremely baffled why you would even ask how many generations I want it to continue for. What gives you the impression I want it to continue at all? Stop with the hyperbolic bullshit. The way you project your assumptions is Bill O'riley 101.

There is no SINGLE problem in their country. Sometimes things like resources are beyond any humans control. No doubt they have made things worse with their shitty policies, I never denied it. There isn't a single post I have in this thread, where I have done anything other than discuss how bad they where/are for their country. Read my posts here, none of them suggest I want it to go on, none of it suggests I'm a communist sympathizer, and I especially hate family dynasties, they are a taint on humanity. but if you sit here talking about "SINGLE problem", then you really have no right to talk about context and act like you have an understanding of the issues.

Kim his administration and dynasty are a MAJOR problem, but not the SINGLE problem. it's simple.

 

[Arete Tzu]

Really...guess this comes down to a Bill Clintonesque comment..."Depends on what the definition of 'is', is".

What you are talking about in regards to the right is NOTHING even REMOTELY close to what has gone on in NORK or any other country with a pissant cockroach for a leader. Stop with the attempts at moral equivalency. If Obama or Bush were torturing political rivals or using it to punish people for crimes you'd have a point.

Defending the use of certain interrogation techniques to stop human garbage from killing innocent civilians is a hefty bit different. Its not like we are pulling peoples arms out of their sockets by hanging them in chains from a ceiling, starving them to death in filth and human refuse, beating them senseless, carving on them with knives, or electrocuting them...

it doesn't matter, you implied the left has no/less of a problem with torture. I don't know to many people on the left who support water boarding much-less the more brutal stuff you just listed. I know blaming the left for everything is popular these days, but what you said was just a matter of being factually incorrect. The left doesn't even like water boarding, they get called weak because they don't want to use it on "human garbage", the left makes the case that people lie to end torture, the right counters that they got some details from it and we must continue.

As far as today's world goes, the right has no doubt done more to make a case for the use of torture. It's not even debatable.

 

[Arete Tzu]

NK with no KJI was poor.

NK with KJI = starving. Big difference.

Doesn't this support the idea that he isn't the single problem? There was some problems he introduced on his own, his control was typical of any dynastic tyrant, but I expect North Korea to continue some of their struggles to be self sufficient, even after achieving democracy. Even when this dynasty is gone, there is still other issues they will have to deal with.

One factor for the famine that was beyond lil Kim's control, was the flooding that ravaged their country, unless he really could control weather he wasn't the single problem there. Another was the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Once that happened North Korea was left to be more self sufficient, which they obviously struggled at. Of course Kim policies made it's impact there, but it wasn't the only thing. It's a downfall of being carried by other countries.

The ones cause by him are severe though, psychologically these people will have a lot of healing to do, i hope their culture recovers in a healthy way. I hope they can at least rise above the malnourished lives they have now on their own.

This is why comments about bombing them earlier in the thread bothered me . it's not the right thing to do to with these people. We should defend ourselves against any bullshit their government does, but a preemptive strike against a country of brain washed peasants isn't something I can support right now. These people should be encouraged to rise up on their own, I have no doubt some are bubbling beneath the surface. There isn't a tyrant in history who didn't have some willing to do it.

 

[Southern9er]

lol @ you even mentioning the lil kim comment. It's called a joke, I think you might need to get over yourself, take a breath and stop making stupid assumptions.

I'm extremely baffled why you would even ask how many generations I want it to continue for. What gives you the impression I want it to continue at all? Stop with the hyperbolic bullshit. The way you project your assumptions is Bill O'riley 101.

There is no SINGLE problem in their country. Sometimes things like resources are beyond any humans control. No doubt they have made things worse with their shitty policies, I never denied it. There isn't a single post I have in this thread, where I have done anything other than discuss how bad they where/are for their country. Read my posts here, none of them suggest I want it to go on, none of it suggests I'm a communist sympathizer, and I especially hate family dynasties, they are a taint on humanity. but if you sit here talking about "SINGLE problem", then you really have no right to talk about context and act like you have an understanding of the issues.

Kim his administration and dynasty are a MAJOR problem, but not the SINGLE problem. it's simple.

Hypocrit...I hate Bill OReilly...can't stand him, so "stop making stupid assumptions" Your comment tells me how far you are willing to reach to paint someone else. And I made no assumptions that you want it to continue, you did that on your own. I simply brought up the long standing nature of this and most people don't remember or don't know about Sung.

If you want to be an absolutist...and split hairs...fine..."no single reason". But you remove the family line and you've got "problem solved"...now don't run away with that on a "stupid assumption"...I understand they won't join the G12 overnight or suddenly spring forth to join the ADB, but I think even you can understand that.

And the point to you was that you made the comment things got "worse" under Jong Il...no they stayed the same carrying on a family tradition. Oh I have every right to talk about context and there is no acting like I have an understanding of the issues. Don't like the word "single"? FINE..."Single biggest problem is the Kim line". Don't be so obtuse, I hope to God you can understand common language. But when you suggest things like this its a deflection of the topic or inability to prioritize and identify the significant issues.

 

[NinerSickness]

Doesn't this support the idea that he isn't the single problem?

He isn't the "single problem" in NK. There is a multitude of problems there (as in every country). What I said is that KJI is solely responsible for turning NK from a poor country to an oppressed, starving country. He was a tyrant. Plain and simple. Just like Anita Dunn's hero Mao or Castro, Chavez, Hitler, Stalin, Ahmadinejad, Ho Chi Min, etc.