North Korea's Kim Jong Il died

[spacedoodoopistol]

Translation: I don't like it when people take moral stances on ANYTHING even if it's a government as as oppressive as North Korea because I'm a moral relativist who supports communists tyrants like these (Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Hu Jinato). I'll bet you're a big fan of Mao Zedong too like White House Communications Director Anita Dunn is.

WOW! Even in my dismal view of your outlook I didn't think it was THIS bad......I don't hold Kim il Jong singularly-responsible for NK's plight, therefore, I must support communist tyrants. Honestly you couldn't have illustrated my point any better. Black and white and literally nothing in-between.

Its like you comprehend the world on a 2nd grade level. At the very least, read Guns Germs and Steel and get some basic understanding of why some places end up richer or poorer than others, reasons a bit beyond your elementary school calculations.

 

[NinerSickness]

I don't hold Kim il Jong singularly-responsible for NK's plight, therefore, I must support communist tyrants.

First of all wake the hell up! Kim Jong Il and his regime IS singularly responsible for NK's blight, and you feel compelled to down-play that fact for some reason. Do they have other problems? Of course! Who doesn't? It doesn't take away from the FACT that KJI, who had dictatorial power, completely ravaged his own country for decades.

Secondly you didn't JUST say he isn't "singularly responsible." You said they have "bigger problems than totalitarian regime."

Those "bigger problems" must be the super-enlightened gray area to which you were referring. Oh, they don't have much to mine. THAT must be why elementry age kids in North Korea are around 6-8 inches shorter than South Koreans of the same age. If only they could mine more!

You don't outwardly "support" communist tyrants, but it's pretty obvious your Marxists view of the world does in a round about way. Please, for the sake of the rest of us who don't walk around with our hands out all day, give it up. It never works.

 

[NinerSickness]

At the very least, read Guns Germs and Steel and get some basic understanding of why some places end up richer or poorer than others, reasons a bit beyond your elementary school calculations.

Again look at you minimize factors like governments and their boots on the necks of free enterprise like in North Korea & China.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Again look at you minimize factors like governments and their boots on the necks of free enterprise like in North Korea & China.

Then explain Norway, fruitcake. As socialist as just about any nation on the planet, an almost control economy with severe business regulations and taxes, and a huge social safety net to help those unable to compete.....or in your words, lazy people who don't want to work. Why does Norway have a world-class standard of living?

Or if you want to actually think a bit, explain why China can maintain 7 - 10% economic growth rates over the past 15 years with a "boot on their neck". Bonus points if you can do it without quoting Rush Limbaugh.

 

[anythingispossible]

LOL

Kim Jong Il, the dictator who used fear and isolation to maintain power in North Korea and his nuclear weapons to menace his neighbors and threaten the U.S.
The country, a declining communist industrial power when he took control, fell into abject poverty under his rule. A famine from 1995 to 1997 killed two million to three million North Koreans. Kim relied on his father's formula for controlling North Korea's roughly 24 million people.
He limited their access to information, ability to travel and earn wealth. And he maintained a system of gulag-like prison camps, massive in scale and horrific in condition, to instill fear.

 

[NinerSickness]

Then explain Norway, fruitcake. As socialist as just about any nation on the planet, an almost control economy with severe business regulations and taxes, and a huge social safety net to help those unable to compete.....or in your words, lazy people who don't want to work. Why does Norway have a world-class standard of living?

You're talking about a country whose population is about half that of the city of Los Angeles. Wait until the takers out-number the makers. It will collapse just like it does everywhere else.

Or if you want to actually think a bit, explain why China can maintain 7 - 10% economic growth rates over the past 15 years with a "boot on their neck". Bonus points if you can do it without quoting Rush Limbaugh.

What a tool! 95% of China is a freeking 3rd world nation! The people there are so poor they make homeless people pan handling in SF look like billionaires! Basically the only wealthy people there are the people in the Communist party, and the only poor people are the ones the government lets in the cities. The rest are the super poor and the super-duper poor.

It's the same thing in the U.S. but not as severe. The government helps public employees first, second and thrid, and then it helps the helpless. That's why normal people get social security, and public employees get unsustainable guaranteed pensions.

Thanks for nothing if you live in California. You're an example the reason businesses are packing up and leaving in droves. Maybe you'd like it better in China; they're even further left than California. PLEASE go there.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

You're talking about a country whose population is about half that of the city of Los Angeles. Wait until the takers out-number the makers. It will collapse just like it does everywhere else.

EVERYTHING comes down to ideology with you, huh. For the record, Norway has ridiculous amounts of oil revenues compared to expenses and can basically afford to give things to its citizens.

And this is the thing - sometimes a country's fate isn't all the result of policies or idiots or geniuses. Some parts of the world have just been dealt a bad hand, and not just in terms of how much oil or coal or fresh water they have, but more subtle things like a navigable coastline or good trade routes or being able to use the same crops all over the country. North Korea comes up short in most ways that allow a country to succeed. And this is one of the biggest points - a lot of the time a destructive, selfish regime like North Korea is a result of the lack of resources, not the cause. When there isn't enough to go around, the strongest group will often just try to monopolize what limited resources there are. This is one reason you usually get more tyrants in poor areas than in rich ones.

Dude, I study this stuff a lot and I don't expect most people to know more subtle aspects. What I HATE is when people try to act like know-it-alls when they don't, if you had just said "yeah, they've been dealt a poor hand too" this wouldn't have happened, but everything in your worldview seems to come down to these black/white constructs and standard capitalism-good communism-bad cliches.

If you say something about college football - which is one subject I know you understand 100x more than I do - you would laugh at me if I tried to counter a point of yours with some ignorant BS - it would be obvious to you that I haven't watched and don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[clyde_carbon]

EVERYTHING comes down to ideology with you, huh. For the record, Norway has ridiculous amounts of oil revenues compared to expenses and can basically afford to give things to its citizens.

And this is the thing - sometimes a country's fate isn't all the result of policies or idiots or geniuses. Some parts of the world have just been dealt a bad hand, and not just in terms of how much oil or coal or fresh water they have, but more subtle things like a navigable coastline or good trade routes or being able to use the same crops all over the country. North Korea comes up short in most ways that allow a country to succeed. And this is one of the biggest points - a lot of the time a destructive, selfish regime like North Korea is a result of the lack of resources, not the cause. When there isn't enough to go around, the strongest group will often just try to monopolize what limited resources there are. This is one reason you usually get more tyrants in poor areas than in rich ones.

Dude, I study this stuff a lot and I don't expect most people to know more subtle aspects. What I HATE is when people try to act like know-it-alls when they don't, if you had just said "yeah, they've been dealt a poor hand too" this wouldn't have happened, but everything in your worldview seems to come down to these black/white constructs and standard capitalism-good communism-bad cliches.

If you say something about college football - which is one subject I know you understand 100x more than I do - you would laugh at me if I tried to counter a point of yours with some ignorant BS - it would be obvious to you that I haven't watched and don't know what I'm talking about.

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with space. The bold is a great paragraph.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

heh....I think we'd agree more often than not on non-AS related topics.

 

[filosofy29]

EVERYTHING comes down to ideology with you, huh. For the record, Norway has ridiculous amounts of oil revenues compared to expenses and can basically afford to give things to its citizens.

And this is the thing - sometimes a country's fate isn't all the result of policies or idiots or geniuses. Some parts of the world have just been dealt a bad hand, and not just in terms of how much oil or coal or fresh water they have, but more subtle things like a navigable coastline or good trade routes or being able to use the same crops all over the country. North Korea comes up short in most ways that allow a country to succeed. And this is one of the biggest points - a lot of the time a destructive, selfish regime like North Korea is a result of the lack of resources, not the cause. When there isn't enough to go around, the strongest group will often just try to monopolize what limited resources there are. This is one reason you usually get more tyrants in poor areas than in rich ones.

Dude, I study this stuff a lot and I don't expect most people to know more subtle aspects. What I HATE is when people try to act like know-it-alls when they don't, if you had just said "yeah, they've been dealt a poor hand too" this wouldn't have happened, but everything in your worldview seems to come down to these black/white constructs and standard capitalism-good communism-bad cliches.

If you say something about college football - which is one subject I know you understand 100x more than I do - you would laugh at me if I tried to counter a point of yours with some ignorant BS - it would be obvious to you that I haven't watched and don't know what I'm talking about.

Amazing post Space! Very well said. Sadly, this post will probably fall on deaf ears (or perhaps blind eyes).

(and for the record, I despise Kim Jong Il and am a registered Republican.....albeit a very middle ground one).

 

[aaronlindstrom]

...
And this is the thing - sometimes a country's fate isn't all the result of policies or idiots or geniuses. Some parts of the world have just been dealt a bad hand, and not just in terms of how much oil or coal or fresh water they have, but more subtle things like a navigable coastline or good trade routes or being able to use the same crops all over the country. North Korea comes up short in most ways that allow a country to succeed. And this is one of the biggest points - a lot of the time a destructive, selfish regime like North Korea is a result of the lack of resources, not the cause. When there isn't enough to go around, the strongest group will often just try to monopolize what limited resources there are. This is one reason you usually get more tyrants in poor areas than in rich ones.

Good post. Unfortunately, I've seen this same thing in both Haiti and Burkina Faso and I think you're spot on with your suggestion that poverty breeds tyrants.

 

[NinerSickness]

For the record, Norway has ridiculous amounts of oil revenues compared to expenses and can basically afford to give things to its citizens.

Norway has about a 40% Dept to GDP ratio. So no it can't really afford it. Nobody can. The U.S. is actually in worse shape than they are, but not worse than countries like Greece, Italy, Ireland, Japan, etc. Eventually they're just going to have to do what France did and what other irresponsible places like Oakland, Valejo & Stockton have done: Reduce the quality of benefits and services they provide. It'll take much longer for countries with few people though; but longer life spans + fewer children = a gigantic welfare bubble. Call it ideology if you want; I call it math.

And this is the thing - sometimes a country's fate isn't all the result of policies or idiots or geniuses. Some parts of the world have just been dealt a bad hand, and not just in terms of how much oil or coal or fresh water they have, but more subtle things like a navigable coastline or good trade routes or being able to use the same crops all over the country.

This is not one of those cases! Of course those are sometimes factors, but Kim Jong Il single handedly ruined that country, and you can't stand to see people point that out.

Dude, I study this stuff a lot and I don't expect most people to know more subtle aspects.

Oh the expert arguement. Everything I say is correct and nobody can refute my points because I'm an expert. Give me a break! You spent this entire thread defending one of the most indefensible human beings in modern history. You try to minimize the horrible things he's done by saying North Korea is screwed from the beginning. There's a huge difference between poor and starving, and KJI made NK into the latter thanks to people like you who bend over & take it.

 

[Southern9er]

"Dude, I study this stuff..."

Is that what the English language has come to? The little cockroach is an evil bastard and the reasons for not taking him down go back to 1953, China, and nuclear weapons...now. Taking Iraq out, we knew NO ONE would stand in our way...that is simply not the case with the NORKS.

You think we've had proxy wars in the Middle East? Wait till you take on the NORKS...yeah...China will sit IDLEY by...Also get a clue as to what the NORKS have built up in their defense...that I know a lot about...this is not a fight you walk into, fighting them would be an order of magnitude worse than Iraq.

Bottom line...relax everyone...and watch Team America, one of the great movies of the last decade!

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

You spent this entire thread defending one of the most indefensible human beings in modern history.

Let's see how I described them in this thread:

- "NK is like a crime syndicate"
- "they are loopy and horrendous people"
- "these freaks"

Feel free to point out where I said anything remotely positive about Kim. Pretty strange claim.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

You think we've had proxy wars in the Middle East? Wait till you take on the NORKS...yeah...China will sit IDLEY by...Also get a clue as to what the NORKS have built up in their defense...that I know a lot about...this is not a fight you walk into, fighting them would be an order of magnitude worse than Iraq.

You're right....I made an exaggerated statement when saying the ONLY reason nobody has taken him out was because there's nothing worthwhile to grab. I caught too that after I posted it. And you're right that China would of course have something to say about it.....but that said, NK would have been quickly defeated in the 50s without Chinese involvement and probably would again after a short bloodbath.

Excellent piece on this from a few years ago, a war game run on NK and documented:

North Korea: The War Game - Magazine - The Atlantic

 

[NinerSickness]

I didn't say you said positive things about KJI. I said you defended him. You tried to minimize the blight that he is saying NK "has bigger problems" than him.

It just seems like you, and most people on the left who talk about these things, tend to give communists a pass whenever they can, and that pisses me off. Anita Dunn even went so far as to call the single largest killer of human beings in the history of the world one of her favourite political Philosophers. How can she even still have a job??? What if she said that about Hitler? Her carcass would be dragged through the streets like Mussolini! Mao made Hitler look like more like Ho Chi Min. So with all due respect to Souther9er I'm not going to "relax" about things like that.

 

[numone9er]

I almost posted that last night, but I thought it was too soon.

Yeah, i thought about it after i posted it. It's still funny damn it.

 

[goDAWGSsicem]

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

[YOUTUBE]vhe3vSe-mmw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[tomikcon1971]

North Korea - The Craziest Country in the World