NON-EXCLUSIVE FRANCHISE TAG

[Dr. Evil-er]

Mayhew on the cap if Suh is franchised: "if we decide to franchise him, we'll have room". Also said the Lions will be able to "do some things in free agency" whether the tag Suh or not.

 

[RobBase]

Just because you don't understand the cap doesn't mean there aren't others who do. This board has several people who know and understand it quite well. They arent arm chair cap experts, they are posters who can add.

Believe whatever you want. Since numbers can't lie but Mayhew can I'll base my beliefs off the part I know I can trust.

You've been proven wrong too much to trust for me.

Unfortunately I no longer can agree. We are $6.8m over the cap now, and that doesn't count the new Raiola contract. It doesn't count the minimum $2m that Bell will cost nor does it count this new Pettigrew contract. It also doesn't count the rookie contracts, the practice squad, and the 52nd and 53rd contracts.

We don't have a backup QB and from what I'm told on here paying $3.25m for one is money well spent. Adding to the problem even further is that $6.8m overage already has the nearly $2m savings from cutting Leroy Harris factored in. That means the only real savings from cuts will come from Delmas and Burleson. That's not even close to enough. You can get additional $ from a new contract for Suh but I don't see where, or how, that leaves anything for free agency.

Posted by you in Feb. 2014. Suh didn't sign a new contract, and a few weeks later the Lions signed Golden Tate, Joquie Bell, Rashead Mathis, and a bunch of others, then went 11-5

Detroit Lions | Transactions

So excuse me if I'm not impressed by your arm chair GM attempts like others here are. No disrespect intended. You just don't see the wheres and how's of FA (by your own admission).

 

[Naughtymax]

Dude, think about it. All we heard last off season from this regime is how it was playoffs or bust. Mayhew and co. is not here for the long term if they don't win now.

I get it. As fans we think long term. This regime is working to keep their jobs by winning the North, and hopefully winning the SB. They aren't building the team for the long term. They're building it to win now.

I'm only OK with heading for Cap Hell if we think we can really contend. Not make the playoffs and maybe win a game. They have a QB who can still be a quality starter for 10 more years and it would be foolish to deliberately blow the cap up for two to three of those years to just make a playoff game.

If going all in, restructure Staff and Calvin now. Sign Revis, then make your pitch to Suh to take a 2-year window while Revis and Megatron are still stars to see if they can put it all together.

 

[RobBase]

I'm only OK with heading for Cap Hell if we think we can really contend. Not make the playoffs and maybe win a game. They have a QB who can still be a quality starter for 10 more years and it would be foolish to deliberately blow the cap up for two to three of those years to just make a playoff game.

If going all in, restructure Staff and Calvin now. Sign Revis, then make your pitch to Suh to take a 2-year window while Revis and Megatron are still stars to see if they can put it all together.

Revis is very interesting. He is one of those guys who I feel would think Detroit is beneath him, but I like your ideas here.

I think we can contend, and more importantly, this regimes thinks so. But the window will not be open for long. That's why I think they do what they can to keep Suh now.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

You've been proven wrong too much to trust for me.



Posted by you in Feb. 2014. Suh didn't sign a new contract, and a few weeks later the Lions signed Golden Tate, Joquie Bell, Rashead Mathis, and a bunch of others, then went 11-5

Detroit Lions | Transactions

So excuse me if I'm not impressed by your arm chair GM attempts like others here are. No disrespect intended. You just don't see the wheres and how's of FA (by your own admission).

They did cut Delmas and Burleson, exactly like I said. Then they went on to do their infamous restructuring of contracts to free a little bit of $ and halved the contract averages of Bell and Tate to fit under the cap. Those were the only contracts that weren't a wash with another cut and sign. Mathis?? That's priceless, a guy on a one year deal where the team gets the minimum salary benefit is considered a big signing you. All hail Millenhew!!

Hell yes then, the Lions should have all kinds of space to play in FA then even after tagging Suh. Garrett Reynolds would be a splash signing for us. Maybe we could really splurg on bringing back Fluellen.

If you are going to tell me that I've been proven wrong please use an example where I actually was. A good example of what someone being proven wrong looks like would be you having thumped your chest on having gotten all of these first rd draft picks we have made over the years correct only to throw out pretty much every imaginable scenario this year and have none if them be correct.

 

[RobBase]

It's not the end of the world that you aren't a cap expert. Only 32 of them in the world, and even that is questionable.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

It's not the end of the world that you aren't a cap expert. Only 32 of them in the world, and even that is questionable.

I actually did make a mistake, the restructures they did were in 2013.

My post you referenced however was made in early February. At the end of February the NFL announced the almost $10m increase in the cap. That's how the Lions found their cap space. At the time of my post it was 100% accurate. They did not have the space.

The cuts netted more than $10m, the cap increase was $10m, and the unexpected release of Houston added another $2.2m in savings. That $ went to bring us out of the negative, sign the rookies, fill out the roster, and then back load the Tate and Bell deals so we could sign them. We finished the year with about $2m in space as a result. My statement wasn't just correct, it was dead on accurate.

You keep on believing in what Mayhew says and I will keep on believing in what the numbers say. I was right with them last year and am extremely confident that I am correct again this year in exactly what it would take to simply tag Suh, let alone do anything in FA.

 

[TwoCents22]

Anyone know of the cap hits for trading Calvin???

$66 million is a lot to pay over the next 3 years. I wonder if they will be shopping Calvin.

 

[Rollingthndr]

Anyone know of the cap hits for trading Calvin???

$66 million is a lot to pay over the next 3 years. I wonder if they will be shopping Calvin.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Dr. Eviler- you'd have better luck arguing with a brick wall... not nearly as thick-headed, and far less egotistical...

 

[RobBase]

I actually did make a mistake, the restructures they did were in 2013.

My post you referenced however was made in early February. At the end of February the NFL announced the almost $10m increase in the cap. That's how the Lions found their cap space. At the time of my post it was 100% accurate. They did not have the space.

The cuts netted more than $10m, the cap increase was $10m, and the unexpected release of Houston added another $2.2m in savings. That $ went to bring us out of the negative, sign the rookies, fill out the roster, and then back load the Tate and Bell deals so we could sign them. We finished the year with about $2m in space as a result. My statement wasn't just correct, it was dead on accurate.

You keep on believing in what Mayhew says and I will keep on believing in what the numbers say. I was right with them last year and am extremely confident that I am correct again this year in exactly what it would take to simply tag Suh, let alone do anything in FA.

I'll actually retract that. If anyone here knows the nuances of the NFL cap, it's you. I know you're good with numbers, and very successfull financially from talking away from the boards. But what you, nor I, will ever have is the power to read minds. In my case, I try to guess what Mayhew will do in the draft (vs. what I would like personally). In your case, it's impossible to know who he might cut, who he might restructure, for how long, for how much, how the new deals are structured etc..etc..etc..there's just way to much unknown to throw an absolute closed door on it.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

The real cap fun hasnt even begun yet

I'll actually retract that. If anyone here knows the nuances of the NFL cap, it's you. I know you're good with numbers, and very successfull financially from talking away from the boards. But what you, nor I, will ever have is the power to read minds. In my case, I try to guess what Mayhew will do in the draft (vs. what I would like personally). In your case, it's impossible to know who he might cut, who he might restructure, for how long, for how much, how the new deals are structured etc..etc..etc..there's just way to much unknown to throw an absolute closed door on it.

Fair enough, appreciate that.

What makes this situation different than others is that you have a hard number here. That's what the franchise tag sets, for Suh is $27m.

If this debate were over the Lions being able to afford lets say a contract averaging $20m for Suh my response would absolutely be that they could. While that's not ideal I would take my chances on taking other actions in the future years if that meant securing him long term.

Don't get me wrong, tagging him is doable. To that extent I would say Mayhew is telling the truth. But he is greatly over-portraying the ease at which the Lions could make that happen.

By my numbers you could also find some $ for FA, but its an ugly scenario to create that money. But that's where the real fun starts because you need to find quite a bit, and the options available to do that are limited. There are only a few contracts that you might look to restructure and even fewer to extend. Neither are difficult or time consuming to do. It will be great fun to watch the twisting and turning of the dollars and trying to predict what they will do in the coming weeks.

But I stand by my belief that if an new deal for Suh is not done by March 2 most likely we wont get one done at all, and that if they do tag him they would be smart to use the non-exclusive tag.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Dr. Eviler- you'd have better luck arguing with a brick wall... not nearly as thick-headed, and far less egotistical...

Well I guess I gotta play along and retract this one, then...

 

[Old Lion]

Fair enough, appreciate that.

What makes this situation different than others is that you have a hard number here. That's what the franchise tag sets, for Suh is $27m.

If this debate were over the Lions being able to afford lets say a contract averaging $20m for Suh my response would absolutely be that they could. While that's not ideal I would take my chances on taking other actions in the future years if that meant securing him long term.

1-Don't get me wrong, tagging him is doable. To that extent I would say Mayhew is telling the truth. But he is greatly over-portraying the ease at which the Lions could make that happen.

By my numbers you could also find some $ for FA, but its an ugly scenario to create that money. But that's where the real fun starts because you need to find quite a bit, and the options available to do that are limited. There are only a few contracts that you might look to restructure and even fewer to extend. Neither are difficult or time consuming to do. It will be great fun to watch the twisting and turning of the dollars and trying to predict what they will do in the coming weeks.

2-But I stand by my belief that if an new deal for Suh is not done by March 2 most likely we wont get one done at all, and that if they do tag him they would be smart to use the non-exclusive tag.

1- Thats what most of us are saying. It is in play but not likely or a very good idea. We may have to gut the team especially if the NFL decided to leave the cap unchanged. Does anyone know when that decision comes out?

2-Me too. It is foolish IMO to believe the Lions will be the highest bidder in FA for him. There are some interested teams that have a ton of money to spend.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

1- Thats what most of us are saying. It is in play but not likely or a very good idea. We may have to gut the team especially if the NFL decided to leave the cap unchanged. Does anyone know when that decision comes out?

2-Me too. It is foolish IMO to believe the Lions will be the highest bidder in FA for him. There are some interested teams that have a ton of money to spend.

If the cap stays the same its over. What it would take at that point would be monumentally stupid. Like in having to take virtually every single salary dollar on the CJ, Stafford, Quin, and Tate deals and turn them into bonus $. Which you would actually have to stretch the amortization of out longer than what even remains on some of those contracts.

That's why you use the non-exclusive tag. If somebody throws a simply insane offer out there that we cant match then we get two first rd picks. That being said keep in mind that we are talking about tagging him which means we will already have freed up a shit ton of cap space before FA begins. That means we will already have been planning on spending $27m on that contract in the first year. For any team to actually beat that they are going to have to commit a ton to that first year. Anyone trying to use a signing bonus as part of a big upfront deal we would most likely have the funds to match.

 

[Naughtymax]

I actually think being an expert at the basics of the cap is extremely easy - second-grade mathematics.

The open questions from a management perspective if tagging Suh are:

1. Will Calvin and Stafford restructure? There is really no way to make it work without this step taking place. Neither party is obligated to sign a different contract, but so long as it does not hurt them financially I don't see why they wouldn't.

2. How much will the cap go up? The NFL is saying it will increase to between $138MM and $141MM. The $3MM here will be fairly important to the Lions.

3. Will the restructures be enough to both tag Suh AND keep some of the players on roster who would give much more benefit post - june first as opposed to pre-June first? I'm looking at it and I think it's a real stretch unless there's a bloodletting of lesser players in February.

4. Will this free up enough money to both tag Suh and improve the team elsewhere, so last year's playoff-caliber, but not truly contending team can move up a level? I say no way, not even close. Another $10 - $12MM would be needed to get an impact FA at CB or DE. Getting a great guard would not be enough IMO.

I keep coming to the same conclusion - tagging Suh is a losing option under every scenario. Signing a couple big names and then trying to convince Suh to sign for the same contract as JJ Watt is difficult but possible. Such a plan would require mortgaging the future and deliberately going into Cap Hell for a few years when Calvin is past his prime, but Stafford is in the middle of his.

 

[jdwills126]

1. Will Calvin and Stafford restructure? There is really no way to make it work without this step taking place. Neither party is obligated to sign a different contract, but so long as it does not hurt them financially I don't see why they wouldn't.

I like Stafford but no way no how do I want to see the Lions put in a position they can't move on from him for the next 5-6 years because of the money he is owed.

Do not give CJ a contract like he is a 24 year old player. The guy is on the backend of his career and as much as I hope to see him retire a Lion I do not want to be paying him top 10 receiver money when his skill level says he is not that guy anymore. Deferring money is locking a guy up at a price that will not allow the team the ability to cut them.

The Lions are currently playing Chris Houston 3.6 million dollars.

3. Will the restructures be enough to both tag Suh AND keep some of the players on roster who would give much more benefit post - june first as opposed to pre-June first? I'm looking at it and I think it's a real stretch unless there's a bloodletting of lesser players in February.

I keep hearing that the three that would be most likely to go are Tulloch, Bush, and with a savings of close to 9 million. But opening holes at DE/DT, and LB. I think they can move on from Bush and Tulloch but Jones was a pretty valuable guy this year.