NL West Talk

[calsnowskier]

I believe the Miller trade was a bad trade for Arizona. They paid WAY too much to get him. Inciarte, alone, would have been a fair-ish trade. We will see this in the coming weeks when Atlanta deals him for another massive package.

But Miller is a stud. Especially as a #2.

Of course injuries and unexpected flop years and unexpected career years will ultimately decide all divisions. But as it sits NOW (any trades and/or FA signings will obviously change this), I see the division as I stated it.

That said, I fully expect the dogs to add more between now and ST than either the DBacks or Giants (combined, likely), so I will revisit my rankings them with some "official" predictions.

 

[dredinis21]

I believe the Miller trade was a bad trade for Arizona. They paid WAY too much to get him. Inciarte, alone, would have been a fair-ish trade. We will see this in the coming weeks when Atlanta deals him for another massive package.

But Miller is a stud. Especially as a #2.

Of course injuries and unexpected flop years and unexpected career years will ultimately decide all divisions. But as it sits NOW (any trades and/or FA signings will obviously change this), I see the division as I stated it.

That said, I fully expect the dogs to add more between now and ST than either the DBacks or Giants (combined, likely), so I will revisit my rankings them with some "official" predictions.

Cal, while I agree that ARZ overpaid for Miller, it's not like they got a mercenary. Miller is under team control for another 3 years and they apparently feel that with Greinke, their window of opportunity is now...and I agree. They have been a team that has shown a penchant to reload and go for broke, then create a MoneyBall-esque firesafe for prospects once the window of opportunity passes.

 

[calsnowskier]

Cal, while I agree that ARZ overpaid for Miller, it's not like they got a mercenary. Miller is under team control for another 3 years and they apparently feel that with Greinke, their window of opportunity is now...and I agree. They have been a team that has shown a penchant to reload and go for broke, then create a MoneyBall-esque firesafe for prospects once the window of opportunity passes.

I never said he was a mercenary. Not sure where that idea came through. But Inciarte is controlled for 5 years vs Miller's 3 and their WAR was almost identical last year. Add Swanson, and forget about it.

 

[dredinis21]

I never said he was a mercenary. Not sure where that idea came through. But Inciarte is controlled for 5 years vs Miller's 3 and their WAR was almost identical last year. Add Swanson, and forget about it.

I wasn't implying that you said it, I was more justifying the trade as if I were in ARZ shoes. At age 25, selling the farm for Miller is risky but makes sense given their needs and their assumed window of opportunity.

 

[calsnowskier]

I wasn't implying that you said it, I was more justifying the trade as if I were in ARZ shoes. At age 25, selling the farm for Miller is risky but makes sense given their needs and their assumed window of opportunity.

OK, gotcha...

But selling a kid who is elite in one aspect, and very good in another (defense and bat, respectively) for low-end 1 alone is a questionable move. Adding in one of the top prospects in the game is really over-playing your hand (IMHO).

It really comes down to this. Is a pitcher more valuable than an OF assuming their general production is the same (and by WAR, they were approximately the same player in '15). If Arizona believes pitchers ARE more valuable (and in general, I do believe this to be true), then they are saying pitchers are a MAJOR prospect's worth better (and I do not agree with that assessment).

 

[Montalban]

I believe the Miller trade was a bad trade for Arizona. They paid WAY too much to get him. Inciarte, alone, would have been a fair-ish trade. We will see this in the coming weeks when Atlanta deals him for another massive package.

But Miller is a stud. Especially as a #2.

Of course injuries and unexpected flop years and unexpected career years will ultimately decide all divisions. But as it sits NOW (any trades and/or FA signings will obviously change this), I see the division as I stated it.

That said, I fully expect the dogs to add more between now and ST than either the DBacks or Giants (combined, likely), so I will revisit my rankings them with some "official" predictions.

I wouldn't mind if that package brought him to the Giants. I disagree though about over paying for Miller. They desperately needed starting pitching and they certainly have it now.

 

[LASports96]

Arizona got worked like a rib in that trade. I understand the price of pitching on that market is high, but honestly Miller is not worth a package of that magnitude at all. 3.45 FIP/4.07 xFIP/3.4 fWAR is a fine enough pitcher and when you consider the years of control and his youth, he's obviously gonna have a high price tag on the market but he wasn't worth what they paid for him. It improved their rotation, but at what expense?

 

[LASports96]

Aren't you underestimating the growth of their younger players along with the effectiveness of Greinke? Having an ace changes the culture of your clubhouse. The Dbacks now have a bonafide stopper and as a Giants fan, I am more fearful of what they could become at the moment then I am the Dodgers because they are a more complete team with a better pitching staff and better lineup top to bottom IMO. Will it play out the way most Dback fans hope it will? Who knows...but it just seems as if you are underestimating them quite a bit.

I think they have a good team, no doubt and definitely better than the Padres were last season with their hype. But I still don't think they've done enough to win the west or be better than the Dodgers or Giants at this point.

 

[Bolts]

DBacks were desperate to get pitching so they could contend and after they forked all that cash over to Greinke it seemed like they'd either add one or two back end starters(Leake/Chen) or make a trade for a better one. They definitely overpaid for Miller, but now they have a good 1-3 in the rotation to go with a strong offense and defense. We'll see over the next 3 years if the overpay was worth it, if they win a WS I'd say so.

 

[dredinis21]

I think they have a good team, no doubt and definitely better than the Padres were last season with their hype. But I still don't think they've done enough to win the west or be better than the Dodgers or Giants at this point.

I would say that the addition by subtraction of Greinke and the collateral effect of his presence on that roster as a stopper is also supported by a young stud with #1 potential who doesn't have to shoulder the burden of being that guy while continuing to fall into himself as a pitcher is plenty to move the needle. The Dodgers have also let Kendrick walk...you know, the guy who was hitting clean-up for them when healthy. There is plenty of losses coupled with a lack of action in FA to lead anyone to believe that los Doyers are certainly worse this year as opposed to last. Conversely, the additions of Greinke and Miller shows of a huge upgrade in the front of the Backs rotation and should show enough to challenge the NL West. The Padres of last offseason was a hodge-podge of action obtaining parts without any real sort of thought towards how they would all co-exist, which led to underachievement.

 

[HammerDown]

LOL @ the D'bags and Giants.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I would say that the addition by subtraction of Greinke and the collateral effect of his presence on that roster as a stopper is also supported by a young stud with #1 potential who doesn't have to shoulder the burden of being that guy while continuing to fall into himself as a pitcher is plenty to move the needle. The Dodgers have also let Kendrick walk...you know, the guy who was hitting clean-up for them when healthy. There is plenty of losses coupled with a lack of action in FA to lead anyone to believe that los Doyers are certainly worse this year as opposed to last. Conversely, the additions of Greinke and Miller shows of a huge upgrade in the front of the Backs rotation and should show enough to challenge the NL West. The Padres of last offseason was a hodge-podge of action obtaining parts without any real sort of thought towards how they would all co-exist, which led to underachievement.

I don't know, Justin Turner's been pretty amazing past 2 seasons.

 

[dredinis21]

I don't know, Justin Turner's been pretty amazing past 2 seasons.

Is he expected to man 2b? Because he was anchored at 3rd most of this last season. Or are you eluding to batting cleanup?

 

[LASports96]

Kiké Hernandez is pretty good...

 

[Montalban]

Arizona got worked like a rib in that trade. I understand the price of pitching on that market is high, but honestly Miller is not worth a package of that magnitude at all. 3.45 FIP/4.07 xFIP/3.4 fWAR is a fine enough pitcher and when you consider the years of control and his youth, he's obviously gonna have a high price tag on the market but he wasn't worth what they paid for him. It improved their rotation, but at what expense?

None really. Arizona is chock full of outfielders and Swanson is not even in the bigs yet. The D'Backs' goal it seems is to win now and Miller definitely helps there.

 

[Montalban]

I would say that the addition by subtraction of Greinke and the collateral effect of his presence on that roster as a stopper is also supported by a young stud with #1 potential who doesn't have to shoulder the burden of being that guy while continuing to fall into himself as a pitcher is plenty to move the needle. The Dodgers have also let Kendrick walk...you know, the guy who was hitting clean-up for them when healthy. There is plenty of losses coupled with a lack of action in FA to lead anyone to believe that los Doyers are certainly worse this year as opposed to last. Conversely, the additions of Greinke and Miller shows of a huge upgrade in the front of the Backs rotation and should show enough to challenge the NL West. The Padres of last offseason was a hodge-podge of action obtaining parts without any real sort of thought towards how they would all co-exist, which led to underachievement.

Good assessment of the NL West situation. The Giants will be right there with them if they stay healthy and Cueto and Samardzija perform as expected.

 

[Montalban]

""What would the Giants do if we saw this headline come up this year?

The Giants have NOTHING in the wings to handle this situation. If Posey goes down, we have tz's boyfriend. If Herk goes down, we have Mac/Parker. If Crawford goes down, we have Tomlinson. But what if Duffy goes down? Adrianza? Shift Crawford over? Arroyo? Make Mays happy?

Maybe the Giants still have one more hole to fill this off-season.""

What a douchebag.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Is he expected to man 2b? Because he was anchored at 3rd most of this last season. Or are you eluding to batting cleanup?

No, he's most likely not going to play 2nd anymore. The Dodgers don't want to risk him getting injured in a collision. I was speaking of batting cleanup, we won't lose anything defensively with Utley at 2nd either, we take a slight hit offensively but guys like Kike will help Utley out at 2nd.

 

[dredinis21]

""What would the Giants do if we saw this headline come up this year?

The Giants have NOTHING in the wings to handle this situation. If Posey goes down, we have tz's boyfriend. If Herk goes down, we have Mac/Parker. If Crawford goes down, we have Tomlinson. But what if Duffy goes down? Adrianza? Shift Crawford over? Arroyo? Make Mays happy?

Maybe the Giants still have one more hole to fill this off-season.""

What a douchebag.

Never mind the fact that you are bringing Giants Board Rosterbation to the general boards, he is a douche bag bc he pointed out an organizational weakness with a realistic scenario? You sure are a peach.

 

[dredinis21]

Kiké Hernandez is pretty good...

Is he Howie Kendrick with the bat? Your team's offense was already void of clutch 2-out hits and the Dodgers are letting the one guy who seemed to do that consistently walk.