Series Thread: NBA Finals: Warriors vs Cavaliers

[WiggyRuss]

To be fair I'd be pretty pissed as a Cavs fan, to assemble a really great team only to have this juggernaut coming at them...

And they may even win it, which would be truly historic and put LeBron 1B to Jordan's 1A in my book.

Haberstroh: "LeBron James is the greatest player in NBA history" will no longer be a hot take. It might even become the conventional wisdom. Last Finals, he beat a 73-9 Warriors squad. Add Kevin freakin' Durant to that team, watch them go 12-0 heading into the Finals and James still beats them? It'd be unbelievable.

To understand the cards stacked against LeBron, consider that Michael Jordan never faced a 65-win team in the Finals. James has faced one in each of the past three Finals. And every team Jordan faced in the Finals had lost at least three games en route to the Finals. James beating an undefeated Warriors team? It could be the GOAT trump card in the eyes of many.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Haberstroh: "LeBron James is the greatest player in NBA history" will no longer be a hot take. It might even become the conventional wisdom. Last Finals, he beat a 73-9 Warriors squad. Add Kevin freakin' Durant to that team, watch them go 12-0 heading into the Finals and James still beats them? It'd be unbelievable.

To understand the cards stacked against LeBron, consider that Michael Jordan never faced a 65-win team in the Finals. James has faced one in each of the past three Finals. And every team Jordan faced in the Finals had lost at least three games en route to the Finals. James beating an undefeated Warriors team? It could be the GOAT trump card in the eyes of many.

Could be, but chances are he'll instead be dealing with the 3-5 stuff.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah, if they pull that off, there'd be nothing left but to give a big tip of the hat to the Cavs and Lebron.

I currently have Lebron at 4 on my list (after MJ, Kareem and Magic). If the Cavs pull this off, I'd definitely put Lebron over Magic and might have him tied with Kareem or even slightly ahead. The MJ ship has sailed, imo.

If LeBron pulls this off, and has 4 ships, why couldn't he get 2 more? In my book he wouldn't need to, considering his career and body of work even in Finals losses, but MJ is not god. Someday he will be passed up.

 

[trojanfan12]

Haberstroh: "LeBron James is the greatest player in NBA history" will no longer be a hot take. It might even become the conventional wisdom. Last Finals, he beat a 73-9 Warriors squad. Add Kevin freakin' Durant to that team, watch them go 12-0 heading into the Finals and James still beats them? It'd be unbelievable.

To understand the cards stacked against LeBron, consider that Michael Jordan never faced a 65-win team in the Finals. James has faced one in each of the past three Finals. And every team Jordan faced in the Finals had lost at least three games en route to the Finals. James beating an undefeated Warriors team? It could be the GOAT trump card in the eyes of many.

It would definitely give him a much stronger argument and the one he has now isn't exactly weak. For me, the MJ ship has sailed, but if they pull this off and Lebron goes absolutely nuts (which is the only way they do pull it off, imo)...I might have to consider bringing the MJ ship back to port. lol

 

[trojanfan12]

If LeBron pulls this off, and has 4 ships, why couldn't he get 2 more? In my book he wouldn't need to, considering his career and body of work even in Finals losses, but MJ is not god. Someday he will be passed up.

Yeah, I kind of revised my stance in post #584.

If the Cavs pull this off, I might have to bring the MJ ship back to port and at least make Lebron a dinghy on it. lol

 

[Heatles84]

LOL

modeled exactly after? are you high?

Kyrie and Love---- compared to Wade and Bosh? cmon- the Cavaliers are a much better offensive team--- while the Heat were built much more defensively and to get out on the break.

Bosh- when he got there- and Wade couldnt shoot a 3.

Love and Kyrie are built specifically for that to give LeBron space. Each teams game is extremely different. I seriously have no clue what the hell you are talking about ---- especially since you have watched both teams how obviously different they are on the court.

So Miami was a super team? Yet Cleveland isn't?

 

[Heatles84]

I would not go that far. Clearly the warriors are more super.

Also, the payroll thing really means nothing. Obviously the team with the highest payroll today will have the highest in league history. Guess what? In 10 years, the team with the highest payroll then will also be highest in league history whether they are a super team or not.

I disagree with this. Sure Gilbert was forced by Lebron to spend more for guys like TT and JR then what they're originally worth. But their salary by far exceeds any other team in the league:

NBA Team Salaries - By Team | Basketball Insiders | NBA Rumors And Basketball News

 

[Heatles84]

You said in the same post that the Warriors out superteamed them, then later said that if there has ever been a super team then the Cavs are one. Does that not sound like a contradiction to you?

As for the money thing? Go look up the highest payroll in the league over the last 20 years and tell me how often the best team has the highest payroll. The Warriors are middle of the pack this year and the Blazers are currently projected to be further over the cap than the Cavs next year. Are they a superteam too? Are the Warriors not a super team?

During the Heat run, do you know which teams had the highest payrolls? The Lakers and Nets. So yes. Owners do shell out that kind of money for non Super teams. It happens almost every year.

By the way, you do realize this entire conversation is opinion right? You act there is right and wrong here. My definition of superteam is multiple prime superstars with additional star caliber talent. The Heat and Warriors meet that, but the Cavs do not IMO.

You are welcome to your opinion, but mine is not wrong.

The Nets at one point had Derron Williams, Joe Johnson, Brook Lopez, KG and Paul Pierce - that's why they had such a high salary. They tried to build a super team and failed. Same went for the Lakers. They traded for Dwight, had Kobe and Gasol, and traded/signed Nash. They too tried to get a super team together.....and failed. This is not a good argument.

 

[CodeBreaker]

This Finals is like MJ and the Bulls, facing the Rockets team with Hakeem Olajuwon, PLUS getting Karl Malone thru Free Agency.

 

[tlance]

Who were the additional star caliber talent players that the Heat had?

Superstars were Wade and LeBron

Bosh was the all star.

Pretty easy there.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

This Finals is like MJ and the Bulls, facing the Rockets team with Hakeem Olajuwon, PLUS getting Karl Malone thru Free Agency.

Not even close

 

[tlance]

The Nets at one point had Derron Williams, Joe Johnson, Brook Lopez, KG and Paul Pierce - that's why they had such a high salary. They tried to build a super team and failed. Same went for the Lakers. They traded for Dwight, had Kobe and Gasol, and traded/signed Nash. They too tried to get a super team together.....and failed. This is not a good argument.

Again though, this term is being tossed around way too frequently. Just like with the term superstar. People on these threads have mentioned guys like Isaiah Thomas and Demar DeRozan as being superstars. They are not.

I remember discussion on message boards when the Nets made their move. Nobody thought they were a superteam except for Nets brass. Some believed they could challenge the Heat (I didn't), but nobody thought they were a superteam.

The very first time I ever heard the word "superteam" was when LBJ, Wade and Bosh came together in '09. It was an unprecedented move where 2 truly elite players combined with a 3rd all star.

While the term was never applied to them at the time, the only other team I can think of that meets this definition from the modern era was the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. However, now the term gets loosely applied to any team that throws together a bunch of big names. I do not agree with that.

Of course the Cavs are trying to make their team the best it can possibly be, just like every contender ever. They have done a good job assembling pieces and they are a great team with a very good big 3. What holds them back, IMO is that Kyrie is not a superstar.

But again, that is my definition. And again, it isn't wrong. Based on the origin of the term, these are the 3 superteams that nobody an argue with:

80s Lakers
LeBron Heat
Current Warriors

People who add a bunch more to the list are making the same mistake as those who too casually toss around the term superstar. The Cavs are close, but they do not meet my criteria. It takes a truly special group.

 

[tlance]

Not even close

You are right.

The Rockets would have needed more to approach what the Warriors have.

It was actually not a bad analogy. The problem is that the Rockets actually did add Barkley, but Charles and Drexler were both past their primes when they did, so they never made it out of the West.

 

[CodeBreaker]

Not even close

Particularly which part?

 

[CodeBreaker]

You are right.

The Rockets would have needed more to approach what the Warriors have.

It was actually not a bad analogy. The problem is that the Rockets actually did add Barkley, but Charles and Drexler were both past their primes when they did, so they never made it out of the West.

You mean the Warriors without KD are above the Hakeem-Rockets?

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Particularly which part?

All of it. You've clearly never seen Jordan's Bulls or Hakeem's Rockets play.

 

[CodeBreaker]

All of it. You've clearly never seen Jordan's Bulls or Hakeem's Rockets play.

Obviously I was not talking about playstyle.

Here's the logic i used for that analogy:
MJ and the Bulls = Bron and the Cavs (the defending champs)
Hakeem and the Rockets = Curry and the Warriors (a team that already won few years ago)
Karl Malone = Durant (an MVP, ringless superstar)

it was just pretty random but i know you could figure that out

 

[tlance]

You mean the Warriors without KD are above the Hakeem-Rockets?

Yes, IMO

Talent was more spread out in the 90s. Only the Bulls compare to the elite teams in this era.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Yes, IMO

Talent was more spread out in the 90s. Only the Bulls compare to the elite teams in this era.

Come on, man! Even you can't believe that.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Superstars were Wade and LeBron

Bosh was the all star.

Pretty easy there.

Its hard for me to have Wade the superstar level during the James years here.
Maybe years 1-2, but by 3-4 it was more all star IMO.